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[Stem Sunders]

FUCK rerolling.

I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity.  Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't. 

Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:

"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."

"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."

"Everyone reroll to Z" 


And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount.  Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.

I'm with John here. Free rerolls is a luxury that we have while the game is in test mod.

500caps or 2k experince is perfectly reasonable.

And I think as combatant noted. Having to spend that little bit more time in game to get that reroll desired could work in favour of player numbers.

I decline the petition.

I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing.

And I'm wondering why people think they are entitled to a "feature" that was nothing more than a required bugfix which then was made fur because of the state of the current playerbase. We have said it often enough, that pretty much since new years eve, the devteam have been looking at this current session as more of a test session. What comes with a "test" is the notion of ignoring immersion and just putting things out there for testing, without much polish.

Changing your build by typing /reroll does not fit into a proper game. That said, the gameplay implications of this have been noted, but there is more to it than that. You cant build a working and enjoyable game out of 100% fanservice, just like every game gets boring once you start cheating. Free rerolls by typing /reroll is too far on that side imo, and I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.

If economy is broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it.

Paid reroll alone isn't going to fix the entire economy but it is one of those much needed money sink.

Paid reroll can be easily adjusted in price if too expensive/cheap maybe even made free later on if needed but free unlimited reroll would meet a strong opposition if changed to paid.

As you put a value on rerolls, it would encourage players to think more carefully about builds and try to use good ones.

After these there isn't much left I would say on the matter. What Marxman said is interesting. Recently (whenever I play) I spend more time Re-rolling my char then actually using him. strangely, I felt more viable and "needed" as a character that couldn't re-roll. Teams used to have actual rolls to play, with all the bonuses and drawbacks that entails.

It was kinda like.

"You need someone to spam?...Better take Marxman."
"You need someone to sneak?...Better take Ramon."
"You need someone to tank that damage?...Better take Obelix"
"You need someone to see enemy traps?...Better take Stem."

Now its like...

You need someone to spam?....Hang on a tick while I re-roll...
You need someone to sneak....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to tank that damage....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to see enemy traps...Hang on while devs make traps viable...

I'm trying to see it as a good thing that should stay...Maybe Ill change my mine but...

-1 to Free-Rolls

Spoiler for Hiden:

@Niamak, Respect for using Extra Credits as a reference.

[paragon]

Glad you all signed up.

Now short answers:

1. Playing different classes are fun -> Rerolls are fun.
2. If your team sucks, or you suck personally, then there's no surprise you're asked to reroll in any of this cases. "I can't reroll, it's so hard and make me think"... Change team or get better.
3. Playing useful/different class will at least teach you something which might improve you. I played all classes and only during/after it became a strong player in aop.
4. Not be able to reroll is like to buy sniper rifle in cs and be able to buy only sniper rifles until you create new account. And grind to get back your rank to be able to play at the level you can and should play again.
5. Real team-play is only available with class combination. Players are flexible. They log in and log off but you still have to keep correct combination. Faggot toilet-camping alike gameplay when you need to reroll to certain class cuz they are best for that situation is an obvious exception example but you can't fix faggots.
6. Most of players stockpile all equipment they get and never actually use it because they are playing the same bluesuite anyway. You can't fix hamsters.
7. Grinding doesn't increase amount of people playing competitive PvP, probably it's even directly opposite.

ok, i'm actually tired.

I wanted to make it half-troll, but I'm getting too serious.

I personally just know what kind of game I want to play, and one of its first principles is accessibility of all gameplay opportunities with minimum of need to do things in game you don't want to do. I understand the meaning of economics balance, though rerolls in my opinion should be out of it, as one of the best gameplay mechanics available for adjusting to the game.

But this game is not designed by me.

kthxbye

P.S. if anyone can to keep the sign uped list up-to-date, pls do.

[Wipe]

Aww, i'm late

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

It was kinda like.

"You need someone to spam?...Better take Marxman."
"You need someone to sneak?...Better take Ramon."
"You need someone to tank that damage?...Better take Obelix"
"You need someone to see enemy traps?...Better take Stem."

Now its like...

You need someone to spam?....Hang on a tick while I re-roll...
You need someone to sneak....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to tank that damage....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to see enemy traps...Hang on while devs make traps viable...

I'm trying to see it as a good thing that should stay...Maybe Ill change my mine but...

-1 to Free-Rolls

When those players aren't on, who's gonna sneak? Who's gonna be that tank spammer? Who's gonna take avenger?

It doesn't even take that long to reroll, I don't know why people are bitching about "nah don't want to reroll", while they have shit builds. I personally reroll to whatever the team needs. We got no sneaker? I'll reroll to one when needed. No snipers? I'll reroll to sniper. No close range guy? I'll reroll to melee/spammer. Also this rerolling is good to test builds. One time I tested this dual weilding pulse pistol, mozam + street samurai, high AG + gum character and worked extremely well. Only thing pulse pistol is outranged by every other pistol in game.

Aww, i'm late

Uninstall

Possible solutions:
Perhaps introduction of character states to save a couple of predefined roles is in order.
Say up to 3 per character, and if you want to rewrite one you have to pay.
Of course pay for each slot and only available in your HQ.
The one click re-roll you want with the limited rerolling I want.

No, I think it's fine as is. Especially when wipe happens and players will make 1 INT, 10 AG, 4 LK builds from reloaded and 6 INT, 6 STR, 6 PE, 7 AG builds from FO2. Then they realize its completely different and now are stuck with that character (how it literally was when AoP barely started).....but wait there's rerolling! Now they can fix their characters without GMs/devs wanting to kill themselves.

[Stem Sunders]

@Stalker

All fair points and I totally see where this thread and indeed yourself are coming from.

I don't want re-rolls to go entirely. Like you said, peoples first character roll isn't going to be the best when they first play. But that gives something else to work towards? Something else to sink that mountain of caps and play money we have.

I just think there should be a price attached to this magical reworking of skills. 500caps, 5000caps. A whole level removed from player? I don't know something.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Fuck that. This is what AoP dominates in compared to other FOnlines. Free, no deleting character bullshit, experience books crap, all that jibe.

[Combatant]

I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.

Good point. 500 isn't a big deal and at the same time player won't be able reroll 3 times per 5 minutes cause he was in hurry and picked wrong perks or traits. Every reroll will become more important because of -500 caps or -2000 exp (as Matthew said). I was afraid of this:

My opinion on this is that the reroll should have a cost, but a reasonable cost so that a casual loner should be able to gather it in less than a week. (i am probably wrong about the number, but let's say 5000caps)

After player finally earn 5000 caps - he won't give a shit about reroll, because actual battle where his ass was kicked happened week before, when he started looking for 5000 caps.

[Niamak]

It's only a little bit of money.

pls think of the children 

[Kurwier]

when fame related features come with constant buffs to dmagae res and plus agility , its no fun without ability to dominate alone in an mmo game ....

[Shangalar]

I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.

To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.

Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.

When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.

Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).

About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.

Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.

Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.

For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.

[Kurwier]

I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.

To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.

Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.

When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.

Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).

About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.

Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.

Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.

For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.

amen +1 , serious many people forgot what aop is about

[Stem Sunders]

I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.

To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.

Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.

When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.

Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).

About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.

Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.

Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.

For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.

Beautiful. Just beautiful 

[paragon]

All along I was wrong. It's so much clearer right now.

Gonna add cost for all additional controls, custom interface indications, item management, filters and etc. They affect economy in a terrible way.

Some kind of drug for each one, 500 caps or something around that.

Probably need to work in this way, like hide item descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some rpg skill and experience with it.

I'm so sorry I overwhelmed the game with too much hotkeys like using stimpacks on others. It takes too much attention and skill to learn it and master the basic game instead.

I think we also finally need to extend real rpg experience by punishing death, taking 1 character's level each time.

UPD: breath in, breath out. There's a point I'm surely missing. I played test session of unfinished game with the obviously different concept from that I imagined. There are some things I've never been agreed with, which is perfectly ok and unavoidable, but here are some points I can't accept and go along with. And it feels unexpectedly personal. Guess I need a break.

[Kurwier]

All along I was wrong. It's so much clearer right now.

Gonna add cost for all additional controls, custom interface indications, item management, filters and etc. They affect economy in a terrible way.

Some kind of drug for each one, 500 caps or something around that.

Probably need to work in this way, like hide item descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some rpg skill and experience with it.

I'm so sorry I overwhelmed the game with too much hotkeys like using stimpacks on others. It takes too much attention and skill to learn it and master the basic game instead.

u already added a feature like this , i only say doorglue and c4 , 400 caps or something and if u dont have it in the current battle and a door is glued than u have to say sry guys i need to take break 6 min to buy the c4 , hope u stay alive -.- ... use stims on others etc easy doable with macros -.- plus ive never seen some other player stim me except maybe 2 or 3 very skilled players ...

[Combatant]

(Edited quote)

like hide item (perks) descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some (weapon) skill with it.

Why, this one sounds interesting. And remove wiki descriptions for each weapon. It's old anyway. So new player can explore literally every weapon while increasing appropriate skill. And with rerolls for caps it will take some time for learning every weapon's strong and weak sides. 

[Niamak]

In a theoritical nice world, you want to have a few money sink without being a burden to the player but we are mostly discussing free rerolls vs paid rerolls amarite? oh wait wrong thread xdd

pls dont glue courier in a room 

[Count Matthew]

Introduce a testing area for builds inside the firing range. Where they can mix and match all the SPECIAL STATS and perks etc.

Give people three builds to make and change between for free.

If they wish to modify any of those builds they have to pay a very high price indeed.

Problem solved?

[Kurwier]

In a theoritical nice world, you want to have a few money sink without being a burden to the player but we are mostly discussing free rerolls vs paid rerolls amarite? oh wait wrong thread xdd

pls dont glue courier in a room 

im forced atm to roleplay licking glue from the door eh and then again i realise its some evil bdsm dev invention , i could live with old system and something connected to st rolls like it would make sense in an rpg ... blowing doors with a charge does has is function even without the glue , the glue is actually what destroys the whole system and in its current form doesnt make sense for an rpg ...

[twat]

needs to cost some other relatively useless item, or significant experience points. one level is nothing compared to starting over. I think it is the PERFECT solution.

[Combatant]

Give people three builds to make and change between for free.

Genious idea, seriously. In general I see it like this:
1. New player can do 3 first rerolls for free.
2. Add commands "~s.build.1" "~s.build.2" and "~s.build.3", which will save current SPECIAL, traits and tags for player. 3 builds is maximum. Player is not obliged to save exactly first 3 reroll's results, he can save 1st one then spend money for rerolls and next time save #7 or even #31.
2.1. And add commands "~l.build.1" and so on up to "3", which will load saved builds for 500 caps, taken from player's inventory. Switching stable 500 forever;
2.2. "l.build.#" and "s.build.#" "~give me the kandy" and "~reroll SPECIAL" works only inside room/platoon base;
3. If player trying reroll 4th time, he gotta pay 500 caps. 5th time 1000, 6th 2000 caps and so on.

Question is: how possibly load build if player's perks at let say lvl 16 when he did "~s.build.1" and now he tried load it, being on level 43...  Or just save his special, tagged skills and traits, and he pick perks from starting point every time build loaded. Oh, really. So all clear.