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[Kurwier]

Ok heres my suggestion with some calculation :

make nighttime malus affecting BTH and FOV reduction , like with higher PE u can see further but your BTH suffers in same way .

i set max PE at 15PE if we take sharpshooter +2PE and Mentats +3PE in consideration  ... well u will see for yourself . also i divided it by 3 different tables , top is darkest night second mid and last beginning of night . i forgot also to take lazer rifling with non fast shoot trait in consideration but would be same as malus just with another +5% list and capped at whatever value u have at max % bth ...



you can happy discuss the idea , but in my opinion it fits to some real night feeling ...

BTH should be in addition calculated within the range from your maximum FoV , like you take all the maluses out of the table and then simply calculate: from attacker 100/fov hex = base value for 1hex % value if target moves forward you while attacker doesnt move . e.g. you got 100 fov as a attacker : 100/100 = 1% so if target is 70 hexes away from you just use 30% from the bth % value out of the table , lets assume you got 13 PE in top table would be 75% bth malus take 30% from that  round it down and your final bth malus will be 52% with every hex the target moves towards you will gain 1% additional chance from the bth malus out of the table which is dependant on your PE in favor for your base to hit ... which means the closer the enemy the more bth you have based on this table ... also it would be 0% malus everytime at 1 hex distance , thx ramen to let me rethink some things ...

[Niamak]

Good suggestion but please share your calculation/formula or spreadsheet.

[Kurwier]

Good suggestion but please share your calculation/formula or spreadsheet.

fromula is straight what u see , like for example with 1 pe at darkes nightitme u get -75% from your fov . this calculation should be done after all bonuses be added for example when u have some fov plus from charisma and the specific mod or from a scoped weapon ... i dunno exactly calculations or formulas to determine it exactly but the idea is just to show the idea ... like whatever fov you have with 1 PE u will suffer -75% at darkest nighttime e.g. with 35 fov u would have 9 hexes fov (should be rounded down always) , with 1 PE  50 hexes fov you would have 13 hexes fov and so on ...

the basic idea is just to let Perception play some bigger role in night for you ability on how far you can see (fov) but on the other hand the scary dark night makes it hard to hit anything the further it is away (the base to hit malus). also this system wont affect any bonuses u can gain becasue the idea is to apply the maluses after all other calculations , so your four eyez char would already have the malus from the -1PE and therefor a bigger -% value from fov kicks in while he still gains some extra hexes on fov from scoped weapon level trait but also bigger malus on fov reduction . in the end i think it wouldnt be that harsh as it is now atleast , since u still could gain some extra hexes like in my first example and 5% pretty good balanced ... so the scope would do the same job as at daytime ... atleast u wouldnt loose that much fov range like it is now which is still a mystery to me ...

to explain the sheet a bit more u see with 15 pe (becasue 15 PE is badass cateye mutant shit smelling it from hospital when you are at your faction hq toilett thru pipesystem) in the darkest nightitme in theory u got almost no fov penaltys but on the other hand you got a big base to hit malus , which makes it almost impossible to hit something that far away in the night ( becasue its simply dark and other critters move and not holding everytime white neon flagz in the air at dat time) , still you are being able to see it , smell it , hear it. thats the whole idea ... the other tables just scale that a bit down , look at the maximums and u can see it.

[RazorRamon]

no

not hitting is not fun

[Kurwier]

no

not hitting is not fun

but its night also bth maluses not that hard also keep bursting weapons in mind ... well on the otehr hand i see a problem also , bth needs to be connected with the distance enemy got to you otherwise its really noo fun when u cant hit soemone just becasue u got high pe ... well you see it becomes interesting hahaha ... only way to do this is eitherway real magic or some fixed bth malus like vanilla fallout does it ... or just started scaling from 10+ PE while < 10 PE got some fixed bth malus number ... let me rethink this and put some new sheet on .

yeah if its possible i woudl make bth malus just dependant on the range between you and your enemy like 100% of your fov range between the enemy and you is 100% bth malus while it scales down the more closer your enemy comes till its finally 0% at 1 hex distance

[RazorRamon]

no

malus hitchance will never be fun

play morrowind if you dont want to hit stuff

[MARXMAN]

no

malus hitchance will never be fun

play morrowind if you dont want to hit stuff

You have to concede, Its abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous to ask for 95 percent (or 100 with laz rifling) to hit all the time ever day. I rather like the idea of a BTH malus, even though it would totally fuck my fast shooter. Haven't had to worry about missing a fucking shot since I was like level 10. The fuck's the point of even having BTH calculations and shit when every single person can hit their shot almost every single time. I like kurwaiers idea, makes it a lot more realistic in terms of night fighting is fucking hard and confusing. 

[RazorRamon]

go play dnd if you wanna roll dice to hit

[cirn0]

Dear Courier:

The Development team wants to thank you for taking the time to participate in our development process. This letter is to let you know that we have selected another mechanic.

You were an exceptional candidate for our night malus rework and we hope that you continue to provide feedback and suggestions for which you qualify in the future. While your suggestions were not selected, the development team did not make this decision lightly. Your future suggestions will receive thorough review.

Again, thank you for taking the time to come to the forum to meet our development team. We enjoyed meeting you and our discussions indicated that you have much to offer your next suggestion.

We wish you both personal and professional success in your suggestions and in the future. We appreciate your interest in our project.

Regards,

Cirn0

[MARXMAN]

go play dnd if you wanna roll dice to hit

I played fallout originally because I liked rolling dice. If the outcome is always known whats the point? Being an Americunt too, I've shot enough guns to know that no one is going to be accurate 100 percent of the time. Especially not at night. This game isn't striving to be realistic, but it does have suppression and bleed etc. I don't see why 100 percent chance to hit at midnight with your naked eyes at max effective range is reasonable.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Dear Courier:

The Development team wants to thank you for taking the time to participate in our development process. This letter is to let you know that we have selected another mechanic.

You were an exceptional candidate for our night malus rework and we hope that you continue to provide feedback and suggestions for which you qualify in the future. While your suggestions were not selected, the development team did not make this decision lightly. Your future suggestions will receive thorough review.

Again, thank you for taking the time to come to the forum to meet our development team. We enjoyed meeting you and our discussions indicated that you have much to offer your next suggestion.

We wish you both personal and professional success in your suggestions and in the future. We appreciate your interest in our project.

Regards,

Cirn0

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm pleased to say that this is the first time in AoP history that developers haven't made a trollish post. 

[paragon]

As many times has been said, "it's realistic" is a bad argument for the game design of current AoP. There are so many unrealistic things, that trying to skip them and add something realistic just for the case of having something realistic is useless.

Cirn0John often use argument "it's fun" for the game design. It has own problems too, first and obv "fun" is subjective. Thus the real argument they mean by that is actually "it'll troll people and I will have fun". Second, something could be fun one-sided and not fun to fight against. Example: red/yellow nukas which were supposed to be "joke items" by design, in real were balance and game mechanics breaking items of dominations. After numerous nerfs, they still might be partially the same, fortunately not used widely.

Still even trollnukas extended the possible tactics/game mechanics arsenal. So after balancing, they will certainly find own deserved place

Now back to HTC malus or any other suggestion to introduce, the questions are:
1) What exactly is going to be archived? (what problem is being solved by that?) How will it make the game better?
2) Is it the best way to achieve that? Are there alternatives? Are there side-effects?

If main idea of the CTH malus is "some real night feeling", than I'd suggest registration by the passport/id and deleting characters after death for "some real life feeling". Same amount of realism and fun.

On other hand, I'd agree with something, which would be positioned as "Being more realistic and thus more intuitive and less frustrating". But I don't see how missing just because night makes the game less frustrating.

In the insurgency I don't think I ever miss because of the night map.

[MARXMAN]

As many times has been said, "it's realistic" is a bad argument for the game design of current AoP. There are so many unrealistic things, that trying to skip them and add something realistic just for the case of having something realistic is useless.

Cirn0John often use argument "it's fun" for the game design. It has own problems too, first and obv "fun" is subjective. Thus the real argument they mean by that is actually "it'll troll people and I will have fun". Second, something could be fun one-sided and not fun to fight against. Example: red/yellow nukas which were supposed to be "joke items" by design, in real were balance and game mechanics breaking items of dominations. After numerous nerfs, they still might be partially the same, fortunately not used widely.

Still even trollnukas extended the possible tactics/game mechanics arsenal. So after balancing, they will certainly find own deserved place

Now back to HTC malus or any other suggestion to introduce, the questions are:
1) What exactly is going to be archived? (what problem is being solved by that?) How will it make the game better?
2) Is it the best way to achieve that? Are there alternatives? Are there side-effects?

If main idea of the CTH malus is "some real night feeling", than I'd suggest registration by the passport/id and deleting characters after death for "some real life feeling". Same amount of realism and fun.

On other hand, I'd agree with something, which would be positioned as "Being more realistic and thus more intuitive and less frustrating". But I don't see how missing just because night makes the game less frustrating.

In the insurgency I don't think I ever miss because of the night map.

Well for starters, Insurgency has ZERO ballistics. None, nada, nyet. Its pointnclick adventure time counter strike style. Tell me you never miss on a night map in Red Orchestra.

I'm sure you're well aware that taking the realism argument and applying it to char death is a farce. I don't want this game to be supah real military sim, but it does need to make sense. I also think that yes, chance to miss at night would make the game a lot less frustrating, because then you can't have the shit I see during the daytime. 100 percent accurate super soldiers who can completely fucking annihilate everything. Chance, while frusrating to those who spend hours pondering in front of a graphing calculator, is welcomed by the average joe who just had SuperDSRl33tproskillz miss his ass because of night. Same with when SuperDSRl33tproskillz gets shot at by a bunch of close range spammers, and manages to get away because of the chance.

Probability and Random chance make the game more fair than by allowing everyone to create perfect super builds and duke it out from there. The Night Malus is part of that balance, IMO and I would love to see it extend to hit chances. Chance and Probability are foundations of Fallout, the game is drenched in misfortune and screw-ups tied to luck.


tldr; were arguing about something the devs have made their mind up about





PS: why can no one agree that hitting someone in pitch black would be a hard thing to do?

[paragon]

Insurgency has ballistics (: have you ever tried to throw a grenade, shoot a rocket or underbarrel? But yeah, not for bullets. Still it has more ballistics than aop.

> "Same with when SuperDSRl33tproskillz gets shot at by a bunch of close range spammers, and manages to get away because of the chance. "

This is exactly the problem of the CTH malus approach. It reduces situation/skill variables effect and introduces "random" effect, which is neither "fair" nor "competitive".

[Kurwier]

well we already have huge unfair non static nightime fov changes , my attempt was just to scale it a bit more fair like u can see more perception will result in better sightrange at night while in same time its harder to hit a target at max distance or if its out of your fov ... i just did think a bit about about it  and this is what i got , still i cant say how it would feel since it will never be tested but from the numbers and formulas i think it would be cool ( atleast in my mind ) ...

here is a updated sheet with the calculations for anyone interested , some minor things missing like explanation of how the calcs would be added ... e.g. FOV malus is % malus to the other already ingame calcs it would be in the end [(whole FoV calc)/100]*FoV malus formula from table ...

all other things in table , just keep in mind that Sharpshooter affects PE check would be something like -5*(PE+2) and if non Sharpshooter then -5*(PE+0) , Hawk Eyes just affect FoV so that calc would be untouched and already in (whole FoV calc) same as Four Eyez with naturally already changing base PE and also Scoped FoV bonus would also already be in (whole FoV calc) also Charisma FoV mod bonuses would be already in (whole FoV calc). rest like mentats and plus PE perks also just affecting basic PE , so i think its quite simple to understand. -cheers



I dont know exactly BTH calcs in game it probably would need some tuning if its affecting eff range , its anyway questionalble why eff range instead of just bth malus like in other similar games ...

[naossano]

I am not fond of the entire principle of nightime malus.
It makes sense from a realism standpoint, but for a graphic standpoint, depending of your brightness level, day and night don't have visible enough difference to allow the player to feel it. If the player can't feel it, it seems random that the character can feel it. That malus seems to come from nowhere for the unaware player perspective.

Also, it provide another malus to a character class that isn't used enough...

I would rather have more environnemental effect like :
- Different npc & creatures (usually tougher)
- More effective smokes
- More effective blinding bombs
- More effective flares
- Darker fog of war (if fog of war is considered)
- Some artificial light still functionning in some areas (like Robco)
- Sewers made impossible to access without active flares in one hand. (and agro from all npc if dropped while inside)
- And so on...

Not just a random stats derailling for a situation that you cannot even see from the environment.

The way it currently is, only combatfag are aware about that stat change.

[Niamak]

Courier, correct me if I'm wrong.

Low PE would have low BTH malus and high FOV malus.
High PE would have high BTH malus and low FOV malus.

At same distance, low PE would have higher final BTH than high PE.

[Kurwier]

Courier, correct me if I'm wrong.

Low PE would have low BTH malus and high FOV malus.
High PE would have high BTH malus and low FOV malus.

At same distance, low PE would have higher final BTH than high PE.

At same distance, low PE would have higher final BTH than high PE > for example 9 sightrange char with 1 pe would have bth malus of 15% at max distance so 95% - 15% = 80% ; while some 10 PE char with something around 80 sightrange would have penalty of 6% percent rounded down > 95% - 6% = 89% ; because relative distance to target is way more lower then with 1PE char which uses his max sightrange , if devs dont lie it would even work with bursting stuff outside your sightrange because old bth calcs shouldnt get touched in first way ... anyway its speculateable when i read paragons comments it feels like he would enjoy vanilla fallout system mechanics which i prefer also but aop got so many twists that its hard to add something which is independant , e.g. if im not wrong then BTH does affect your effective weapon range ... i mean its ok since nobody is forced to shoot anything outside your effective range but then again i dont know exacttly calcs for everything that is outside your effective range . from all that i remember it was some factor stuff again like *100 and outside *1000 ...

still i think the system would work , it would just feel strange when your effective range is changing in rt while the distance gets closer to the enemy but thats not my problem ( i do even believe that this is way more realistic feeling , not like some people mentioned that night just feels like its cutting something off and then it stuck ) ... its aop vanilla interpretation of mechanic problem .

 i just forgott to mention that final calculation formula for bth malus is just value that u substract from final bth calculations e.g. [(whole bth calc)-final bth malus value from night]

it would work for sure , but funny when i think about it ... i mean that was the idea in first place , your effective range equal to 0 with very high pe and very high sightrange and very high distance to target while its bigger when you point at a enemy that is more near you , so its not static anymore , dunno how that would turn out in the game ... maybe it would be too much confusion or just simply turn off effective range FoV line in night and use max range instead huehue bljad... atleast you catch the idea ... and see the weakness of current effective range mechanics or why current nightime maluses feel that much of being shit .

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Night Time should be when the sneakers and meleers come to play. People should be afraid of walking in the dark in the middle of a ruined city. Oh yeah, the monsters too, the horrible stuff that lives in caves and sewers because it doesn't like daylight.

Would love to see torches, flares, etc play a part in this regard. Light control could be a important component of night fighting.

Some enemies - I'm thinking 'bots and Super Mutants here - could be absolutely terrorizing because they have better-than-human vision/sensors, so they can pull X-COM Night Terror sectoid sniping bullshit.

[Komrade]

Yeah because NPCs terrorizing grids wasn't enough.