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[PusiteGA]

after next wipe it would be good to make faction non joinable it too much people in ther allready so
if 100 lawyers 50bb 50family 50v tehc you cnat join lawyers until their numbers drop or v,bb,fam numbers go up to 90 100
would solve problem of swarms

[naossano]

As much as i want the team to be balanced, i wouldn't want that :
- You want to play with your family/friends/team mates and aren't allowed because arbitrary limits.
- A limit is set for a faction in which most members are unactive, or in which no one dare to go out without their leader, even if they could swarm everyone.

That said, that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about balancing it.
The balance of the numbers is currently broken, and it is the case since the beginning of the cession.

[PusiteGA]

ye but on next wipe you can go faction whit your friends so no problem about limit for now its broken totaly
first cin0 would need to implment char caunt then char activity so if comone creates character and it isent used for week it drops from faction number and if character dosent pvp in week he drops from faction number, if it isent used for moth or more it goes to jail

[naossano]

Even in the beginning, balance was broken.
- At the very beginning, BBoys swarmed everyone.
- Very soon after, and for a long time, you had the V-TEC swarm, followed by the lawyer swarm, and small squads of family & BBoys caught in the middle.
- Then BBoys and family finally allied, so we could have three balanced groups, but the lawyers disapeared soon after, taking time to reappear.
- Now you have the V-TEC swarm, followed by the family swarm. Lawyer are caught in the middle, while BBoys are somewhere between allied with family and caught in the middle. For RP/loyalty/friendship reasons, BBoys should probably stay allied with family. But for balance reason the lawyers deeply need them at the moment...

Amongs the things that could be done :
- Better individual score if you are in the team in lower number. Lower if you are swarming.
- Lower condition on things you loot if you are swarming. Better condition if you are swarmed.
- Having the ability to form alliance with other team (except your sworn enemy), with ingame feature supporting it, depending on the operation, on squad basis. Let's say team A is starting a timer with two people, while team B is coming with their army of ten. The six members of Team C can come and send a team up invitation. The member of team A with higher fame can accept or refuse it. If they accept it, the zone won't be contested when team C enter, and they will count for team A timer, as if team A had 8 people.
- After X battles with team A swarming everyone, logged members of faction A can randomly receive a message inviting them to switch faction, free of any cost. Their room, or individual platoon will be transfered, their fame/reputation will be converted in the new faction. Of course, any of them can refuse, but they will keep receive invitations as long as the balance issues hasn't been solved.

Those are just example and i think we should  keep  thinking about other options.

My point is that instead of providing an arbitrary barrier, we should encourage people of moving to another faction when necessary, rather than forcing them, and providing malus in swarming (like deterioration/lower reward) instead of outright forbidding people from doing it. If you gathered people for an action and suddenly discover that you were 8 agains't 4, it would be very frustrating to be forced to make 4 members of your team stay away from the action, at the last minute. But after you did the same things a few times, you should be invited to consider options to rebalance things for the upcoming battles.

I know that part of my platoon joined the family when the lawyers ruled everyone for consecutives weeks, but there wasn't anything ingame supporting it. They started again from stratch in the new faction. And some of them refused to came back to lawyers when the lawyers number fell below the number of BBoys/family, because they invested too much into the family. Also, it took weeks/months before the BBoys started to ally themselves, because no feature supported it. And it might take as much time for other alliances. IMO, there shouldn't be permanent alliances, but temporary alliances on a battle to battle basis, to balance the current number at the moment.

Also, one shouldn't mistake the number of people in faction, the number of people active in that faction, and the number of people actually coming to ZC.

I believe that the number of characters registered in the lawyer HQ is higher than the number of characters registered in the family HQ, but the number of active players is higher in the family. Also, the fact there are active members doesn't mean they all do ZC, or that they all do ZC at the same time. The real factor to take into account are people participating in ZC at the same time.

Trying to act only or registered characters number of number of active members without taking into account this factor would be totally pointless.

[Teela]

VTEC seems to have had more people resurfacing than other factions in the last couple of days. But trust me when I tell you that swarming isn't my favourite pastime either.

Not sure about a solution to balancing numbers. In my experience the fun battles are where neither side is outnumbered by over ~25%. The challenge would be to find a clever way to achieve this.

Closing recruitment for certain factions based on activity is a nice idea. You can still make the long trek across the wasteland to join another faction if needed. Making it less of a hassle to change to any faction could be a good thing.

[Count Matthew]

When lawyers have the numbers they are a force to be reckoned with. They appear to be enjoying the backstabbing tactics at the moment. They see a battle coming and they amass and wait on the sidelines. I think 4 more regulars for the lawyers would even it out

[Myakot]

I remember at the start of this server some Polish clan went "We're going to play (it was Lawyers if I remember correctly), so NOBODY JOIN US, OR WE'LL TK YOU" .
So NO to that suggestion, it will disable "fresh blood stream" to the server:
i.e.
Some people finally got tired from playing FO2, but they want to transfer as a whole clan, and here your suggestion kicks in! They can't! Coz there're 20 of them! So they just forget about AoP ;P.

But the thought is good, faction balance certainly needs to take place, just in some other form.

[naossano]

I think it was the BBoys. One specific clan that wanted to be the only one on their faction.

We only had a few problem of TKing in lawyers in the beginning of the cession. A few players felt they were entitled to "punish" players committing mistakes in the battlefield by killing them. It was very unpopulare and stopped quickly.

Anyway, the point wouldn't to close faction or forbid player to come in ZC, but encourage players to move easily back and forth between factions (by keeping their goodies/fame), make and undo alliances on the field, have bonus/malus on the field depending of their number.

But, the number that really matter is the number of active players playing ZC at the same time. Even today, lawyers have a fair number (around 10 i think) of active players. But we are rarelly more than 3-4 at the same time, and we are more often less than that. Player X log off, then Player Z coming, but players C and D have to eat soon, but by the time they come back, Player E got pissed to wait and just left. It would be nice to have alliance features when number is too low.

I partially agree with Teela about being outnumbered being fun.... To some extend.
If the difference between the two groups is less than 50%, (10 vs 15) the difference is barelly noticable. But if the difference is 100% or higher (10 vs 20), even the tactics, gear, level of character, experience of players, won't matter, as the enemy will keep sending troops focus firing. They just have to rush like morons and they will be (almost) sure to win.
 
The features i propose wouldn't make swarming disapear, but make more counter-measure option at player disposal.

If you swarm, you win al the time, sure, but the loot is worthless as you have to repair everything, and you score is quite low. Why not joining an outnumbered faction ? See the balance manager npc. I will move you with no cost.

[PusiteGA]

duno whats wrong whit my idea if they have 20 people in clan (thets rerrity) they can join lowest number faction

[Myakot]

duno whats wrong whit my idea if they have 20 people in clan (thets rerrity) they can join lowest number faction

but the lowest faction has all Russians in it, and they dislike them = BAM. THEY ARE FORCED TO PLAY WITH THEM.

[PusiteGA]

So? auto-team balance alvies give you some shithols in team, did you ever played counter strike, anyway if thets big problem for 20 people group ( thet would be retarded group if they sux whit 20 p) they can go kill some other faction thet much so they start faction swicing cuz the pain of daing all time and when they swich enough 20 people can transfer

[nailbrain]

and what is dat faction dat is all Russians ?
or ppl speaking russian are marginalised as russians ?

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

lol this guy

talking about wipe n shit already 

[Myakot]

and what is dat faction dat is all Russians ?
or ppl speaking russian are marginalised as russians ?

This was an example. Not an actual event.
An example of what would have happened (and probably will) if the circumstances are right.

[naossano]

I propose calculations for those

- Better individual score if you are in the team in lower number. Lower if you are swarming.
Multiplier of the number of characters of each team in current ZC (or rather current contest)
If team A has 5 members involved in that ZC, team B has 10 members and team C has 20 members.
Score of members of team A is multiplied by 4. Score of members of team B is multiplied by 2. Score of members of team C is divided by 2. (multiplier/divider can't go higher than 10)

- Lower condition on things you loot if you are swarming. Better condition if you are swarmed.
Only a bonus/malus of things you loot, by 25% if you are twice or half the number of another team.
Only the number of people that were in the map between the beginning of the contest and the moment you loot are taken into account.

- Having the ability to form alliance with other team (except your sworn enemy), with ingame feature supporting it, depending on the operation, on squad basis. Let's say team A is starting a timer with two people, while team B is coming with their army of ten. The six members of Team C can come and send a team up invitation. The member of team A with higher fame can accept or refuse it. If they accept it, the zone won't be contested when team C enter, and they will count for team A timer, as if team A had 8 people.

The total number of people within that alliance cannot be twice the number of people not involved in it (lvl6+ connected members).  Otherwise, the game would refuse that alliance. Also, anyone from faction A that is lvl6+ and in Phoenix can propose throught the cheapboy and alliance with Faction B. The members of Faction B that are lvl6+ and in Phoenix can vote for or agains't that alliance. The majority wins. If numbers are even, the alliace wins. The alliance only last this specific ZC or one real-life hour.

- After X battles with team A swarming everyone, logged members of faction A can randomly receive a message inviting them to switch faction, free of any cost. Their room, or individual platoon will be transfered, their fame/reputation will be converted in the new faction. Of course, any of them can refuse, but they will keep receive invitations as long as the balance issues hasn't been solved.

For each ZC on a day, the number of unique characters above lvl6 that were in the area during the ZC (timer+contest) are recorded.
By the end of the day, the average of the 5 number peak of character for each faction in ZC is calculated daily.
If faction X had participated 10 ZC this day, only their highest numbers count. Let's say they were 10, 8, 6, 9, 3 , 2 , 1, 4 etc... Only 10,8,9, 4 & 3 count for the average. So if you came with huge number only once, it won't be the same as if you had gathered this huge number every time. On the other hand, if faction Y came all the time, even alone or with two guys, only their highest are considered. It is not like there are only two guys in that faction. If faction Z come to ZC less than 5 times, this day, the average is calculated amongs the times they came. If faction R didn't come at all that day, the average from their previous day is kept. Each day, the average of the 7 previous dayly peaks average is calculated. It is the weekly average peak (except it is calculated daily from the 7 previous days). If that number is twice the number of the average weekly peak of another faction, you will have the ability to change faction free of cost, having your personnal room, fame, items, transfered into one of those factions. All your room items transfered into your inventory, and your character transfered into your new room. If a platoon want to move into another faction, they also have to make a vote in the platoon. If it is accepted, the leader of the platoon will be transfered in the new platoon, with all the platoon items in his inventory. All the member of previous one will have access to this new platoon. If your weekly average peak isn't at least twice of another faction and want to change faction anyway, you will have to do it the old way.

So the point is to accept that faction A could "occasionnally" swarm, as long as it isn't all the time, and to not take account the times were there is only one guy in the faction B, if faction B is also able to gather more people the other times. Also, only the "twice" is the magic number here. The number of people in each faction don't have to be equal. But once a point is reached, the number alone can means defeat/victory. Also, some kind of reward, like caps or XP should be awarded to the people that agree to change faction through the "rebalance teams" features, so they would do it more happily... And, once again, none of them should be forced to change faction. It is more a bonus scenario than an obligation.

[Anza]

Very nice ideas there 

I think auto balancing should be a great idea, but as said above, hard to set as you need to make difference between active ZC players and ghosts/pve/others. One solution could be to restrict numbers of active platoons on each faction. There are not so many clans in AoP (or even Fonline community) so it could be dealt case by case by Aop Team I guess... So that it would be a leading ZC force on each faction (i'm thinking of the 8 factions system). If more than 8 clans arrive, there could be mix regarding Aop Team discretion (like Amboys and Pistoleros would be together etc)

About the calculations depending on ZC force, I do like it a lot but we need to check how complex it would be to code that.. 

The alliance system should be reworked at well if there is going to be a 8 factions system. If 2 factions ally, it shouldn't be contested when they enter a zone. It could be done with squads indeed. The SL will make the squad faction when it comes to capture the zone (if family Komrade leads the BB/Fam squad, zones will be captured for Family). NameColo should not change accordingly to alliances, as alliances can be broken etc 

[naossano]

I think auto balancing should be a great idea, but as said above, hard to set as you need to make difference between active ZC players and ghosts/pve/others. One solution could be to restrict numbers of active platoons on each faction. There are not so many clans in AoP (or even Fonline community) so it could be dealt case by case by Aop Team I guess... So that it would be a leading ZC force on each faction (i'm thinking of the 8 factions system). If more than 8 clans arrive, there could be mix regarding Aop Team discretion (like Amboys and Pistoleros would be together etc)

The key number is the number of people (lvl6+) that the faction manage to bring at the same time in each ZC. The number of people online in that faction, or the number of unique character that participate globally this day, or the fact those people are within or without a platoon/squad are meaningless.

------------------
Not answering to Anza there.

In case my english is not good enough to allow me to convey the concept of daily average peak, allow me to rephrase it.

Those are just example, it doesn't mean it is the exact reality.

Faction A, let's say the V-TEC.
They are able to gather big number, but only in two ZC.
Their number in the 8 ZC they participated this day.
- 4 - 5 - 6 - 10 - 15 - 12 - 2 - 4
Their five peaks are 15 - 12 - 10 - 6 - 5
Their daily average peak is 9,6
Even if they are able to gather big number, it is quite rare, so their overall number is a bit lower.

Team B, let's say the Family.
They are able to gather many people almost all the time. They have been in 12 ZC this day.
Here are the people they gathered in each ZC.
- 8 - 6 - 12 - 15 - 14 - 13 - 11 - 10 - 3 - 6 - 8 - 9
Their five peaks are 15 - 14 - 13 -12 - 11
Their daily average peak is 13

Team C, let's say the lawyers, are able to gather some people in a few ZC, but come anyway, when they don't have the number. They participated in 12 ZC too.
Here are the people they gathered in each ZC.
- 1 - 2 - 1 - 4 - 5 - 4 - 6 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 3
Their five peak are 6 - 5 - 4 - 4 - 3
Their daily average peak is 4,4

Team D, let's say the BBoys, only participated in 4 ZC, but managed to gather a squad each time.
Their numbers
- 5 - 3 - 4 - 2
Their numbers are all included in the highest peaks
Their daily average peak is 3,5

Team D, let's say the monks, is the most unlucky. They barely participated in battles, as they couldn't manage to gather any people.
Their numbers are
- 1 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 2
Their five peaks are 3 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1
Their daily average peak is 2

So, even if the V-TEC are able to gather as much people as family in 1-2 battle, their average peak is still lower as they can't gather those people quite often. If it was the peaks and not the average of multiple peaks, the V-TEC and Family would have the same final number. That's why it is important to gather a number of peaks, and not just one single peak.

On the other hand, even if lawyer can come in a lot of battle with low number, their daily average is still much higher  than the monks as the lawyers CAN gather more people. They just choose to come in battle even if they don't have this number. But the number can be reached. If it was only the average, they would just have to come 50 times with only one guy, and get the same average than the Monks. It is why the average is only the average of the peaks, and not the average of all their battles.

Here is how i see the daily average peak.
I chose to also include the weekly average peak, as this second value show a trend that confirm or not the daily number in a more extended period. If the family usually swarm, but forget to do it the saturday night, it should mean that everyone should join their faction the sunday because they were outnumbered the previous day.

Now let's say that their weekly average peak is this :
Family : 13
V-TEC : 9,6
Lawyers : 4,4
BBoys : 3,5
Monks : 2,2

The family and the V-TEC members can join the lawyers, the BBoys and the Monks free of charge.
The lawyers members can join the monks free of charge.
But the family members cannot join the V-TEC, free of charge as their number isn't twice V-TEC number.
The lawyers members cannot join the BBoys, free of charge, and the BBoys members cannot join the Monks free of charge, for the same reasons.

That weekly average peak is recalculated every day, so the people that changed factions and participated in ZC this time will count for the next average peaks, and the new balance is took into account next time people are invited to change faction.

Do you have any question/problem/suggestion ?

[PusiteGA]

kinda ok, i think evry auto team baleace shud need trail period to refine it , anywey  what mean free of charge?

[naossano]

You talk to an NPC about balance (should find a better way to include it). He will propose you to join one of those outnumbered faction. If you accept to join them, you will transfered with all your items in a new room, within that new faction. The items could end up on the ground of that new room or in your inventory.

If you are part of a platoon, a vote would start within that platoon. If the whole platoon want to join that faction  (or rather the majority), every members would be transfered in a platoon of that other faction, with the platoon item put on the leader inventory, or on the ground of the platoon.

You could even get a not-too-much-abusable reward like XP, for helping to rebalance the teams.  You should probably also have your reputation with the new faction increased to reach 10K, just like those who start playing within that faction.

If you want to join a faction which weekly peak average isn't half the one of your own faction, you'll have to do it the old way. (Creating a new character, or messing with the reputation of your own characters, and find a way to transfer part of your stuff to you new HQ, without the support of server features helping you to do it)

If you are new in the game, you should also get a small reward (small because of abuse potential) for joining an outnumbered faction.

[Anza]

I love when Nao talks about Lawyers because we always sound like true bad ass heroes facing swarm without fear lol