FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix
Game improvements => Suggestions => Topic started by: naossano on November 16, 2014, 06:09:31 AM
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I believe this was mentioned a billion time each week by other players, but i didn't see any progress in that area.
Currently and since the beginning area, you could see troll characters that were able to instant kill other player with just knives.
Those sneak-melee are the only one that regularly instant-kill others, and they don't even have to use ammo/costly weapons. I won't remind what everyone has said that the sneak should be nerfed/removed.
I would bring some additions to the mix that could make things more fair.
- Instant-kill counter measures. There is no reasons only one character (the cheapest) should be allowed to instant kill. On the other hand, one of the most intestersting aspect of AOP is that there is almost no instant kill. Contrary to Fonline and other crappy servers, here fights lenght longers and it should stay that way. You are now able to adapt, use tactics instead of just shoot first. This fit well with the AOP big map. You don't want to go through 5-6 maps to comeback on the battlefield. You should have chances to fight back. It would be fair to be unable to make more than 80% of the player maximum health (after all other calculation) on a single attack). Even if you hurt him, you should need at least two attack to kill him.
- Melee weapons should deteriorate much faster. Contrary to other weapons, you need to make the weapon in contact with the organic matter in order to make it usefull. It shouldn't take too much attack before the weapon show sign of being weakened, not sharp enough, or maybe heavy, adding more chance of failures & critical faillures. It wouldn't break, but might hurt the owner or be dropped.
- Sneak should use a more layered system of enemies awareness. Let's say you used sneak to kill a guy. You have to wait two minutes before sneaking again, as enemies are in alert mode, then you will have a 50% malus in sneaking for three minutes, as enemies are in aware mode. Then, after five minutes, you would have no more sneaking malus. If there isn't any player of opposing faction, or red (hostiles) critters, in the current map, you would be able to skip alert/aware mode and re-sneak immediately.
That way, those chars would still be powerfull, but with enought flaws to balance it a bit.
Otherwise, let's just all create melee sneak and play easy mode...
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In small scale fight, melee sneaker are very strong but in large scale they are USELESS.
I understand how you feel but what about pros and cons (only nerf ?). How would you make them useful in large scale fight if you want to nerf their small scale effectiveness.
If you dont believe me, you can just watch old ZC videos how well melee sneakers perform...
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I like how the melee damage has been metered out, buuuuut, when taken to extremes (like ST10, heavy handed, 10 luck, silent death etc) like powergamers always will if allowed to do so, the snowballing effect of melee does get quite ridiculous (i.e. 700 damage crits).
It would be awesome if they could buff out these extremes in melee, keeping the damage constant and high, but not ridiculous.
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TS is wrong on so many levels it just hurts. :)
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I can remember clearly about 5 death due melee sneakers, and every time it was two hits kills ~(250+350).
And I cant remember any insta kills. I think better ask someone like Ramon or REDRUM about how often they can kill player in armor and at full HP with 1 strike.
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I would say not often, but most of the time one good head crit is enough to KO or KD with plenty of AP left over for a second (and I'd say 90% of the time) fatal hit.
Back of the head by Ramon, forgetaboutit, you're dead mate.
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Most of the time, if not all the time, the first hit bring your life into the negative numbers, which means that you can't do a thing, you are dead. Then, when you finally see the guy, you can't do a thing as you are already dead when they hit you with the 300-700 hit points attack.
Basically, you are done in one click, before even being aware there is a guy, and that guy have the cheapest weapon in game. I cannot call it PVP.
Beside that, many players consider sneak shouldn't be used for offense, but for information gathering. I think it could be used to kill, but not as an unreachable grim reaper. You should have a few sec to react, even if unwisely and he should be more cautious before killing, if it cost the ability to re-sneak, or a malus, for a few minutes.
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Noooo don't nerf melee :/
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Most of the time, if not all the time, the first hit bring your life into the negative numbers, which means that you can't do a thing, you are dead. Then, when you finally see the guy, you can't do a thing as you are already dead when they hit you with the 300-700 hit points attack.
Basically, you are done in one click, before even being aware there is a guy, and that guy have the cheapest weapon in game. I cannot call it PVP.
Beside that, many players consider sneak shouldn't be used for offense, but for information gathering. I think it could be used to kill, but not as an unreachable grim reaper. You should have a few sec to react, even if unwisely and he should be more cautious before killing, if it cost the ability to re-sneak, or a malus, for a few minutes.
When you consider how low strength the other sneak weapons are, and their relatively short range, the wakazashi puts them all to shame by a large margin, I would say very worth the risk of closing the few extra hexes to deal such insane damage.
It is definitely the silent death multiplier causing this specifically in this case, considering the wakazashi is the only weapon with this perk, it could be altered to suit (I.E. increase the base damage by a certain amount and reduce the silent death bonus to +50% damage or somesuch. Double damage, even circumstantially doubled damage has to be the strongest weapon perk in the game by far).
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That way, those chars would still be powerfull, but with enought flaws to balance it a bit.
Otherwise, let's just all create melee sneak and play easy mode...
Wakizashi cons : you have to be 1hex and behind your target, 10 CH character can tank you, you have to sneak (armor bypass, can't carry more than 10 kg, use jacket, stick to walls, perception penalty, yeah i know sneaking has no downside right...), useless in ZC, useless in large scale, its a melee weapon so ghost hit happens more often.
Devs always said AoP is about group play.
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(armor bypass, can't carry more than 10 kg, use jacket, stick to walls, perception penalty, yeah i know sneaking has no downside right...)
It is a sneak, come one. Do you expect him to have power armor and bursting rocket launcher ? His sneaking protect him far more than any armor. And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor. The other penalties also exist in other servers. But this is the only server in which there is only one character that instant kill, a character that not only instant kill, but is not seen and is one of the cheapest. That should be balanced.
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Do you expect him to have power armor and bursting rocket launcher ?
Meh, im not talking about realism, only downsides. The fact is there are downsides to wakizashi.
His sneaking protect him far more than any armor.
Armor bypass, jacket ( paper wall , low dr/dt ), i also forgot to add you can desneak with burst hex shooting but nobody uses it since its a new mechanic to AoP
And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor.
Every armor have almost the same price. combat leather coat = combat armor mkIII etc..
Don't get me wrong, I hate 1hexing and instant kill. I don't know just adding more downsides, cons, nerfs to an already extensive list, doesn't sound reasonnable. Wakizashi still useless in ZC :(
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> Do you expect him to have power armor
We've met at least 2 characters with wakizashi in PA, but I believe there are more.
> And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor.
There's no better Tier2 armor than a coat (which is not used due to its weight by sneaks, emh). Leather jacket suppose to be the same value armor as combat armor (although I think that SCA is better than CA in any case).
> The other penalties also exist in other servers. But this is the only server in which there is only one character that instant kill, a character that not only instant kill, but is not seen and is one of the cheapest.
He can't carry more than 10 kg if he wants to be sneaked. He needs to use and recharge stealthboy (which is heavy, I guess, if you want to sneak for a long time).
> Wakizashi still useless in ZC :(
No, it's not. It's one of the best support weapons which doesn't require primary skill (which seems the most questionably mechanics for me in here), to use in close combat for many characters.
It can be used directly by sneakers who enters the combat after the first AP spent and kill high value target(s) - very effective and terrifying, if you don't create danger - nobody's shooting you until your work is done. And it's often could be a deciding kill for the combat.
As for team gameplay I don't consider wakizashi to be any OP, but for sure effective weapon in certain amount of situations with proper use. Comparing to the flamer, mk2 it's almost the same approach to be effective, which is not always working.
As I said, questionable sides for waki is sneak skill as weapon skill and lack of deterioration
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His sneaking protect him far more than any armor.
Armor bypass, jacket ( paper wall , low dr/dt ), i also forgot to add you can desneak with burst hex shooting but nobody uses it since its a new mechanic to AoP
You can't talk about armor bypass and low dr/dt when you 2-shot someone without any chance of retaliation. Moreover there is also the sprint perk that allows you to run into safe area after you dumped your PA killing someone. Burst hex shooting to destealth is very situational, you can't expect people to randomly shoot everytime but yes on some occasions it is usable to detect a sneak. Is it enough ?
Again we're talking about 1v1 situations. Sneakers have the ability to choose fights, to kill very fast, to run away at insane speed after that, or even to chase anyone who is trying to flee. The ability to choose fights also allow them to use drugs/food at maximum efficiency, while their targets could have drugs down or not taken yet.
In ZC, they can scout areas, while in sneak mode they dont even trigger timer if i'm not mistaken, so you don't know when they are in your zone, but they know while someone is in. They can use guns to support in fights, again Sprint makes them quite efficient in a lot of situations... People can carry ammo for them so they can scout all day long. And they can flee more easily if fight is lost. What do you mean Sneakers are useless in ZC ? They can't tank in front line ? They are not the only ones you know ? They have to switch to guns, making them useless in this situation ? Well snipers have to switch to other guns when enemies are closing distance, EW have to switch weapon too when they see Tesla Armor etc.. It is not as if Sneak Melee were the only ones who have to adapt to enemies... And I mean on ZC only
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In ZC, they can scout areas, while in sneak mode they dont even trigger timer if i'm not mistaken, so you don't know when they are in your zone, but they know while someone is in. They can use guns to support in fights,
There are so many misconceptions in this thread. I don't know where to start. Instant kill Wakizashi require powerbuild (heavy handed, etc...) so obviously they can't scout effectively, use guns effectively, etc etc ...
People can carry ammo for them so they can scout all day long.
comon lets be serious...
What do you mean Sneakers are useless in ZC ?
I don't want to quote myself but I said wakizashi and melee sneakers.
Sneak Melee were the only ones who have to adapt to enemies...
Carry weight penalty doesn't allow them to adapt to every situation.
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Serious, you guys mix wakizashi and sneakers discussing them both and arguing if the apple green or banana yellow.
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Why can't they scout ? Their job is to locate enemies they don't need sniper vision for that. 200 sneak I believe they have it. They can't use gun ? Yeah they can't use mirkor to make some KB you're right they need the bonus dam perks on the weapon. And lots of ZC happen in buildings anyway, so sledge etc
And what's the problem with people carrying SB ammo for them ? I meant while sneaker runs out of ammo, one the squad drops him some so he can refill SB
The carry is irrelevant as well, I mean if the sneak is a loner yes of course but we are talking about ZC situations where he can be dropped other stuff before engaging (not 100% of time but most times)
@Parangon : I'm mostly answering to the "Sneaks have many cons", making the assumption it requires a lot of skill to play sneakers (to stay alive on 1v1..) and to the fact that they are useless in ZC, which again i don't agree at all, but if the meaning was that they can't 2-shot a sniper with his friends around without dying, well again he's not the only one hehe
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Just an example of being useless:
Happy, 2.5 kills, 1 ressurect during combat, tanking damage.
Compare it to bodies on right top.
Not his best battle though
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.msg16337#msg16337
BTW, same guy in PA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0q24k7hkas&feature=player_embedded
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Just an example of being useless:
Happy, 2.5 kills, 1 ressurect during combat, tanking damage. (compare it to bodies on right top)
Not his best battle though
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.msg16337#msg16337
Maybe I was a little harsh using the word "useless". In the video, Happy managed to kill Atac after 4 hits within ~10sec then killed Thomas with ~200HP in 2 hits. Nice damage, I guess... I shouldn't worry about details. :-*
ps: then he hit suff for almost no damage cuz leadership lel
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I've added 1 more video after that.
This time he attacked from behind... Suff was pretty surprised to die first in battle, he usually dies last.
What if experienced waki attacks from behind every hit?
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He used machete in second video, don't worry this one weapon is absolutely OP. You should be surprised.
off topic: He really went full YOLO with power armor and machete, it's funny. :D
What if experienced waki attacks from behind every hit?
In the first video, if he was sneaking and attacking from behind, he would be godlike, I agree. 8)
Their job is to locate enemies they don't need sniper vision for that.
With perception penalty, do you really think they don't need sniper vision to be able to scout enemies who have sniper vision ?
They can't use gun ? Yeah they can't use mirkor
Im not saying they can't use DSR or pipe rifle, Im saying they can't use guns as effectively as other build because instant kill wakizashi builds are power builds meant for wakizashi. It's only a small detail, I guess.
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this is one of the two close combat builds that is good for now (other is Cprod critter)
why u want so badly to destroy it ?
all melee build must be meatballs dat must be shot for fun and if they manage to get near only thing capable of being tingling ?
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> With perception penalty, do you really think they don't need sniper vision to be able to scout enemies who have sniper vision ?
Most of combat chars do not need / don't have PE more than 5. It requires dedicated spotter to has high PE / four eyes with many scoped. Especially after LDR nerf, but FoV bonus isn't used that often as well. Sneakers are decent and important scouts.
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Im not saying they can't use DSR or pipe rifle, Im saying they can't use guns as effectively as other build because instant kill wakizashi builds are power builds meant for wakizashi. It's only a small detail, I guess.
I understand what you mean, of course they wont have the perks, but when their scouting job is over and fight starts, they can use mirkor to KB or supersledge if in buildings, that makes them usefull and that is to be added to their usefulness for scouting, so they have their place in ZC atm
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does watchtower works as described ? because if it does single perk almost nulifies entier build
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The less players there are, the more powerful sneak is
In the big ZC battles of old you were at times unable to get behind the enemy since there were enough people to watch every possible entry point. And even if you did get behind them you'd still have to worry about reinforcements arriving.
A group of only 5 enemies is in direct comparison way easier to predict and can only cover a smaller portion of any map. It's easier to get behind them and there will be more opportunities to strike as there are less factors to watch out for.
So if you wanna nerf sneakers, tell your friends to play the game again.
Dont try to balance the game around the current state of low scale battles, its hopefully not gonna stay that way forever.
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does watchtower works as described ? because if it does single perk almost nulifies entier build
Yeah i will like to know how this perk really work, i have read very different versions of the effects, but none as a reliable source of what it does.
For what i undestand from the description, it makes you to detect chars in the front sides at same range as in the front. So it doesnt affect back or backsides.
So it doesnt feel like will nullify the sneak build.
On topic: i think that making weapons not related with the sneak skill can help to balance sneak.
As is now, you can use the bests melee weapons only having 200 in sneak, without raising a single primary skill.
Problem with that is that it will force you to get 250 melee (to unlock silent dead), and 200 sneak, which won't leave much options
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I have watchtower and the few times I encountered sneakers I could see them at 5 hexes from sides and behind (although "behind" is hard to tell as I was moving). I won't say it nullifies sneak build as they are ready for you while you have to react and if you dont manage to KB/KO them they still slaughter you :P Aiming is too long so weapons like combat shotguns etc
One time i tried to run and the sneaker drew a gun to shot me to make me fall :'(
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Watchtower affect these formulas with angle = 0 :
max_range = (max_range * (100 - ((sneaker_skill - 50) * 20) / 50 - 20 * angle)) / 100;
min_detection_range = (16 * (100 - angle * 20)) / 100;
max_range = CLAMP(max_range, min_detection_range, 100);
without it angle could be 0, 1 (side forward), 2 (side behind), 3 (right behind)
So you sneakers behind the with same multiplier as in front.
To understand real values, you can use my char planner implying I was able to reproduce the mechanics.
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What does max_range mean in your formula ? The max range you can see a sneak ?
What about min_detection_range ? The minimal distance you can see a sneaker ? How is not related to sneaker_skill ?
Thanks for formula
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From wiki:
Detection range: Detection Range = (Sight Range)*(1 - 0.2*{(Sneak - 50)/50 + Angle})
Minimum detection range = 0.16 * (100 - angle * 20)
From my char planner:
if (detRange < minRange) { res = minRange }
else { res = detRange }
So max_range it's range you can see sneaker = function(field_of_view)
min_detection_range - yes, no mater how sneaker skilled, you'll see him in minimum 3 hexes
behind
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It's weird because it means if you have 225 sneak, people can see you at 30% of their sight range, and i'm pretty sure it is less than that from game experiences.
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See the problem with the "sneaker can only carry 10kg" argument, is that a wakazashi sneaker isn't even effected by this at all, he probably has spare space for more energy cells, that's like 40-60 minutes of sneak for them without a mule.
The 10kg penalty only ruins gun builds by forcing them to take only one weapon or two light weapons with very little ammo, wakazashi only weighs 2.5kg and jackets are 3 - 4.5kg.
My argument is why do only sneak wakizashi assassins get to be ridiculous in damage >.<
I can understand melee being stronger (or harder hitting) than ranged in general, it makes sense, but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee? (Cover of invisibility, 200% circumstantial damage buff, ability to also take BG or EW as a main skill and being as strong or stronger than a straight melee etc), I love the idea of the wakazashi build but it hits ridiculous extremes at times, which really need to be averaged out a bit more.
Maybe trading some of the waka's extreme circumstantial damage for some heavy and constant bleed chance and bleed damage?
Or if it must be kept at it's current damage level, maybe bump up its AP cost, so double clicked aimed shots are not possible (e.g. minimum of 55-60 ap after all BROF bonuses for headshots).
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Ghost I +20% Sneak when next to a wall.
Ghost II +20% Sneak when within 5 hexes of a wall.
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The 10kg penalty only ruins gun builds by forcing them to take only one weapon or two light weapons with very little ammo, wakazashi only weighs 2.5kg and jackets are 3 - 4.5kg.
Yeah that's basically what I'm saying, melee sneaker cannot adapt to every situation because carry weight penalty.
Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.
but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee? (Cover of invisibility, 200% circumstantial damage buff, ability to also take BG or EW as a main skill and being as strong or stronger than a straight melee etc),
Don't forget about wakizashi instant build being a power build argument.
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but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee?
Because they'll have to sacrifice their survivability and ability to be usefull in an actual team fight. There is no real point in being pure melee. You can mix it up with any other class (preferably supporting) and be just as efficient. Sneak-melee doesn't have that kind of variability.
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I guess, but I would only see it as a sacrifice for low int or gifted champions, if tagged with say first aid, which is likely, 200 is easily achievable along with a primary and at least decent first aid.
No special stats have to be sacrificed to sneak, so the non sneak and sneak melee special builds could end up very similar anyway.
Rocking a CLC or even fire gecko leather as a melee sneaker (which is easily doable, albeit expensive, but expense becomes relative after time anyway, especially when clanning up) definitely doesn't put you at an armor disadvantage against anything less than PA, the main combat disadvantage is the sneak penalty timer, which a good melee sneaker will generally bypass by getting one or two shot basically insta kills and taking advantage of bloodthirst, sprinter or voodoo, or more likely, all at the same time (again with the extremes when it comes to sneaking and melee combining here), along with some kind of tankiness (even just high end and a couple of specific critical resistances to ensure escape in most cases).
Gahh, me and my textwalls, I can't help myself i'm sorry.
It just seems that a lot of extremes in the game are culminating with melee sneakers (highest alpha damage, best speed, invisibility cover to close range etc), almost all in the positive for them.
The last thing I personally want is for any build to be "nerfed" out of play, but if, as I was saying before, the extreme sides could be adjusted or re-calibrated in some way, as has been done with other "extremes" in game.
Hit and run comes to my mind when I picture a melee sneaker, but one hit kills (or two very fast hit kills) wasn't what I was expecting, I mean "properly" specced melee sneakers are explosive, it can't be denied, as it can't be denied that greater numbers help against them because they are the very definition of rambos by design :D
Bleed is perfect for hit and run in my eyes, a single (still high damage, just not explosive damage) high AP hit that applies a horrible bleed (boosting sprinter for the high AP hit) which in a lot of cases will cause one to die unless treated (boosting bloodthirst from a distance in theory, if they die to your bleed while you are stealthed right, which could be extremely useful), and even if treated, you are forcing defensive actions (doc and FA), while potentially getting away much easier. This also still leaves sneak melees with great potential for mopping up fleeing foes and small unaware groups/loners as per usual.
Makes sense to me anyway. The big dude with the big machete (or supersledge/powerfist ect), taking no effort to be hidden should definitely be the more "explosive" (high alpha strike) one in my eyes (if built to maximise melee of course), gives more reason and incentive to focus down melee tanks like this (pulling dps off team mates is a quality tank trait too) also great and immediate consequences (one or two hit insta kills) to the people who choose to ignore the huge melee dude closing gaps and running through the open etc.
Fuck i'm an opinionated asshole, so much text >.< sorry guys.
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Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.
You can try being sarcastic all you want, I did carry sec for our squad scout, it works and if you cant manage to do it, well it doesn't mean it is not doable... Again we're talking about ZC situation for this carry thing (just to be sure we are not misunderstanding)
About the sacrifice from melee sneaker compared to gun sneaker, if you think you do not have versatility well i dont agree. As i said before, you can always shoot with guns, the fact that you dont have perks doesnt make you useless, ofc it will less optimized but numbers count. Moreover in most ZC fights, buildings are involved so melee weapons are viable. You also have some combat medic using melee, so as i am pretty sure most melee sneakers have doc or fa, they can still be useful.
What I mean is that melee sneakers and sneakers have their place in ZC, they may not be as optimized in group vs group fights as pure tank or other builds, but they can play as sneak very effectively, and still be able to play in ZC, while the ZC characters cant sneak. Moreover they are the scouts in ZC. I wonder why people say they lack versatility while i think it is quite the opposite.
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Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.
You can try being sarcastic all you want, I did carry sec for our squad scout, it works and if you cant manage to do it, well it doesn't mean it is not doable... Again we're talking about ZC situation for this carry thing (just to be sure we are not misunderstanding)
I also, successfully, use friends as mules quite often when sneaking/ask my closer friends to loot specific corpses etc, its a bit of mucking around, but without an SEC mule I wouldn't be able to participate properly in ZCs as a sneaker.
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I also, successfully, use friends as mules quite often when sneaking/ask my closer friends to loot specific corpses etc, its a bit of mucking around, but without an SEC mule I wouldn't be able to participate properly in ZCs as a sneaker.
Please don't think of your friends as mules, they might feel bad about it and refuse to give you the SEC when you need them.
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There's not really a need to have a slave following you around carrying spare SEC or ammo
With 9.9 weight you can create tons of decent loadouts to play around with that have 30 minute sneak time, for example:
1) leather jacket + wakizashi + desert eagle .50 AE + 44x deagle ammo
2) leather jacket + wakizashi + DKS sniper + 65x .223 ammo
of course you cant really loot anything unless you plan to leave the core right afterwards
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Please don't think of your friends as mules, they might feel bad about it and refuse to give you the SEC when you need them.
How about walking backpack?
Or, hmm, something creative, like..
Storage compartments.
Just kidding, love you guys :)
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New discussion has risen about melee/sneak melee balance, but were unfortunately closed before consensus was close. Instead of repeating some of those arguements, i provide the links here.
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2265.0
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2277.0
As the current system is still game breaking, the topic is still worthy of discussion as ever.
On the second link, were mentioned options in the purpose of making the melee character still strong while not so deeply overpowered as it sadly currently is.
Those were mostly about crippling in non lethal ways. Another option would be to increase the evasion/defense for balancing the much needed attack nerf.
By being less likely to die in the time needed to reach the target, the melee would compensate its lack of range, while still leaving option to its opponement. You could choose to shoot him, having 20% or 50% chance to miss him or just leave. But if he gets close, you wouldn't outright die at the first second.
Considering the damage of the melee attack would be lowered, you wouldn't be killed by sneak melee or "regular melee" right after opening a door, and the bonus would make the melee character also reliable in open space.
If you think about other option to replace the damage output, feel free to contribute.
If you don't think you have anything worthy to add, or that it doesn't grab your attention, feel free to comment other threads instead.
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Im start to getting tired of your QQ about that melee insta kills any player. Before you keep with this, try to play a melee build, and see how frustrating can be any times get killed without a chance to fight back, or see your enemies escape from you with almost no health. Or be in ZC and have to wait inside building for a chance to fight. Yes, you can have a backup weapon, but you dont get the max range, or perks.
Again, melee its a situational skill and it should be powerful on those situations, It have also lot of counters (suppression, winded, cripple legs). And even waki sneakers arent that powerful as you want to make people believe, yes, they are the only class that can kill you with 2 hits, but that has a huge luck factor and only happens few times. I have scape sneakers after being backstabbed lot of times, and lot of players scape from my sneaker. Always watch your back and run every time you see a sneaker, AC can evade most of the strikes as sneakers have -3PE.
It of course need tweaks, balance, and fixes (those damn ghost shoots), and im in favor of a damage reduction in exchange for a speed bonus. But its not an insta win for melee or game breaking as you want to state.
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Okay I'm gonna try to make a clearer post about what I think about that
1. Melee/Sneak Melee KO chances, I think this is OK, deagle .50 has high potential of KO too for example, and if you land a good KO on someone, you have high chances of winning the fight. One issue though : auto-KD from supersledge. I think everyone understand that melees are very situational and are very strong in closed areas. With supersledge, it's just insta win on 1v1, and still good asset on ZC when in buildings (because the enemy is likely to be pushed against a wall so not so far). If you give auto-KD on Thrust only, it will be more balanced because people atm can just chain Swing for ~27ap, waiting for a KO roll. If you take a Mirkor shot (auto-KD) as a comparison, it takes a lot of ap and it doesn't make lots of damage (+ no KO possibilty).
2. No aiming time for Melee/Sneak Melee weapons. Another thing is that there is aiming time on aimed shots but not on aimed melee attacks, giving this feeling of insta kill when u get hit by twice 150+ dam in 2 sec, while a ranged attacker will take more time (and thus lowering the dps burst). In my opinion, this cannot be changed, if you add aiming time, Melee/Sneak Melee won't land any attack, so something can be balanced elsewhere (I know, it's very complicated). I am stating this issue more to explain the feeling of insta death than anything else. I'll add the fact the this feeling of insta death is only relevant on 1v1 vs sneaker melee, it doesnt happen a lot in ZC (it's more focus fire fest that insta kills)
3. Speed bonus. I don't think Melee characters should have more base speed than Ranged. Atm if a ranged char encounters a melee char, there is a chance to flee for both most of the time.
a. Range sees Melee on a street, Range can shoot Melee to death before Melee reaches him, so Melee will just run away or at least cut LoS. Range can follow him but there is no point except getting caught in a trap.
b. Melee tries to ambush Range in a building, Range sees Melee close to him and decides to run away. Melee can follow him but there is no point.
If you want to close the distance faster, there are already tools to make you faster, like leather jacket or voodoo. Run speed is a very strong asset, you need to sacrifice something to get it.
4. Melees in ZC. It is not more frustating to play Melee or Range in ZC imo, Melee characters will play with covers/buildings, while long ranged characters will want an opened area. There are of course characters in between (pistols, shotguns, etc). If you get frustrated because you can only fight in buildings, then Melee is not your playstyle that's it. Imagine a sniper could also complain he is frustrated he can only fight in opened areas. You see enemies escape with almost no health, well it is the same for ranged... Gunfights are usually not at 1 hex, so people just run away, cutting los and zoning out. Again if you have a target running away with low life, just take a voodoo and go after him you'll kill him.
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i am mele and i think SuperS is OP autoKnockdown shoud be only on thrust, and swing shoud have 40% or somting like thet, about runing speed i still think it shoud be added
Anywey what mele wapons ara aimable cuz i tryed only combat knife and its buged when i set to aim it wont attack
Machete works Tested, anywey does Speer get bonus from Havy Hand?
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Again, melee its a situational skill and it should be powerful on those situations,
I think i have to state it once, but i agree that melee should be powerful on specific situations, and i am quite happy to see some players use melee in ZC AND have some efficience. It is a welcome change from FO2238, in which the guy who dared bring a sledge in a TC was considered as a joke, and maybe even shot on sight by his buddies. IMO, the more different types of builds, the better. Regardless the option chosen (if there is a chosen option), the melee should remain strong and situationnal.
The problem is that, from the way it is, if you open a door and see a melee, or if a sneak melee come near you, you are done. You didn't even had the opportunity to fight. In a server which 99% of the fight people need entire minutes to kill each other (if they both play well), this guy just have an insta-kill button, that kill both the opponement, and the fun of the fight, as the death happened before the fight even started. I would be more than happy if the melee manage to remain strong, but with a fight actually taking place.
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Lol Luiswill Sluger has AP of 45 and 2 handed super S has 30 total unlogical and 1 more thing then combat knife shoud be 10AP cuz you can stab 10 times in 1 sec and for swinging big hammer you would need 2-3 sec...
i think Super S needs nerf add AP cost to 55
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> "stab 10 times in 1 sec"
maximum 4 (most probably 3) and if completely without distance/reverse. Very short movements which in most cases takes holding the target with the second hand and if target do not defend.
This an example of middle distance stabbing: http://youtu.be/E61jnJe_1SI?t=1m2s . 8 hits in 4 seconds.
BTW, you can shoot a pistol 3 times a second as well.
Now back to the game: it's not connected to the reality in most of the cases if you think about it closely. Even though there are many things which could be rebalanced in a better way, it should be a work on every weapon and not just one. Basically, it's just not a priority right now as there are no people who are able and willing to do it.