FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

General section => General Discussions => Topic started by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 12:21:39 AM

Title: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 12:21:39 AM
I watched personally today as 2 guys took out 6 just by staggering their shots. With the range thats as good or greater than most guns, and with the Aoe Knockdown... you can just turn a corner and fire with a friend and keep and army of people on their asses. The only downside i can see from it is the fact that you can't shoot when someone is in your face. Though you just have to swap weapon and your fine.

It may sound like bitching... but Im a person who is looking into playing a big gun build and i see no reason at all to use any other big gun. Supression is cool but knock down is better...

TL:DR Bitch bitch bitch, I see words on the screen but all I hear is bitching.

EDIT by Shangalar: could you please not put insults in thread titles? Please behave.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 12:30:31 AM
Grenades can be easily dodged, they are not that easy to aim, they do not have even nearly as good range as any other sniper. Try finding tons of grenades to fire, gl with that. Single smokescreen and any hth with a megapowerfist will end your domination.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 12:39:43 AM
In that scenario... you just fire at the guy HTH guy. Bam hes on the ground as your friend hits him. Not to mention in a ZC scenario (which this whole game focuses around right now.) A hth guy who would charge you will be effectively committing suicide. Then lets talk about how most zc areas have very few spots that a sniper will out range the gl. And the GL would be a dummy to stand in a place were a sniper could take him out.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Kane on September 12, 2014, 01:05:58 AM
Wait... grenade launchers do not hit you instantly, if you're camping ass, and do not move around  then it's your only fault.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 01:22:58 AM
You act like someone can tell when they are about to get wtf smacked by GLs. And pre aiming GLs arn't that hard.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Nunn on September 12, 2014, 01:29:41 AM
Anything with a knockdown is inherently going to be strong in this game, though this may be a matter of making counter strategies then a straight forward fix.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 01:38:08 AM
In that scenario... you just fire at the guy HTH guy. Bam hes on the ground as your friend hits him. Not to mention in a ZC scenario (which this whole game focuses around right now.) A hth guy who would charge you will be effectively committing suicide. Then lets talk about how most zc areas have very few spots that a sniper will out range the gl. And the GL would be a dummy to stand in a place were a sniper could take him out.
You do understand that hth's run with double voodoos or 1vd 1psycho? He will get you faster than your grenade is going to explode. Besides all HtH characters have all the perks that gain resistance\or fast get-up vs that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 01:47:21 AM
The hth would still be commiting suicide by running in to the enemy group just to punch a couple of GLers.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Kane on September 12, 2014, 01:52:52 AM
I still don't know what's your problem - GL is only a CC weapon working inside buildings against a group of enemies, if you're camping you should choose a big building instead of fitting in few hexes, otherwise I don't know what's so OP with this weapon, there are better weapons than this in splash damage (shotguns/flamers)
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 02:07:02 AM
The hth would still be commiting suicide by running in to the enemy group just to punch a couple of GLers.
Once again, grenades are not that common that you should waste them on HtHs that are running supersledgies at you. You gain nothing and lose shit ton of uncommon loot, is there any imbalance?
And once again - SMOKES, USE THEM = no problems.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Fayfay on September 12, 2014, 02:16:16 AM
I didnt even  knew there is smoke grenades in this game haha :p

Thanks for the info :)
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 02:18:45 AM
I didnt even  knew there is smoke grenades in this game haha :p

Thanks for the info :)
Look up the first pvp-stream of this game (30 aug.2014) They are damn usefull.
If there were no smokes - snipers would be the best choice for every build.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Fayfay on September 12, 2014, 02:25:35 AM
They are no craftable?
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 12, 2014, 03:31:30 AM
Our CC farmer guy is killing shit ton of snipers on zone control.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 03:36:53 AM
Our CC farmer guy is killing shit ton of snipers on zone control.
Are we talking about WorstPlayerEver?
Have never seen him do anything usefull during ZC, just as I did nothing. Besides, he exploited his char way the heck up, all that extra xp he has...
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 12, 2014, 03:43:38 AM
Nope, it's PorkchopExpress. He doesn't participate ZC too often, but when he does, he usually kills more than 5 in battles like 1v2. Spray and dominate.
BTW, tactical use of grenade launchers is standing somewhere out of vision and shooting somewhere close enemy is standing. You don't need direct line of sight and it gives you great advantages.
Everyone now should stop considering battles in sense of Sniper > Burster > CC > Sniper. Cooperate and use your characters in proper way, this way will become really meaningful for the whole group, not just for you.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 03:59:08 AM
paragon ->
This will happen eventually. It's a bit early to make a suggestion about rock-paper-scissors. We didn't even have any t3 fights yet ;P, besides balancing will happen at least every week.

I do NOT say that GLs are weak, they are freaking awesome. I just say that they are not imbalanced, primarily because of ammo rarity.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 04:42:51 AM
Ammo isn't rare... Expensive maybe... A whole S rank mission will get you... what... 70 nades. Thats quite a lot of nades.
(http://i.imgur.com/33HZoTG.png)

But this server focuses around ZC, ZC usually has a defending and attacking team. And Usually the defending team is stuck to a building or a group of them... Which is advantages most of the time... until a grenader or two come... and that WHOLE defending team will get their shit kicked. Since all it takes is some blind fires inside some windows. Hell smokes would work for the nader more than not. Nade launchers are IMO way too good for this type of gameplay. Yes they are counterable... but the counter is super risky and will most likely end in failer since it requires a whole team to offset their position just to make the counter point effective. Nade launchers are "bullshit" .
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 05:04:40 AM
Ammo isn't rare... Expensive maybe... A whole S rank mission will get you... what... 70 nades. Thats quite a lot of nades.
(http://i.imgur.com/33HZoTG.png)

But this server focuses around ZC, ZC usually has a defending and attacking team. And Usually the defending team is stuck to a building or a group of them... Which is advantages most of the time... until a grenader or two come... and that WHOLE defending team will get their shit kicked. Since all it takes is some blind fires inside some windows. Hell smokes would work for the nader more than not. Nade launchers are IMO way too good for this type of gameplay. Yes they are counterable... but the counter is super risky and will most likely end in failer since it requires a whole team to offset their position just to make the counter point effective. Nade launchers are "bullshit" .
THAT point of view makes much more sense then the one you mentioned previously ;).
With this I can sympathize, so, what do you suggest?
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 05:10:42 AM
Suggestion. Well... I don't know. Maybe have grenade ammo not buy-able. Maybe make it a special only buy-able in extremely limited quantity and only available when a certain  zone is captured... Maybe make the grenade launchers uncraftable and only available to find or buy.
Hell... make it a reward for one of the special platoon only assignments/Zone Control areas that are being Planned.

Really I have no true suggestions. But I know that when this game is going to get popular its just going to be a grenade spam fest and the defending team is just going to sit with their back on the ground since grenades knock your ass out almost 100% of the time. *shrug*.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 05:24:36 AM
NNYT won't allow that, I know, for some reason I feel like it.
Making nades foundable only.. like rockets? (you can still buy them, but not a lot).
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 05:35:12 AM
Make them findable and only restock when certain zones are captured? Like the 4 innerzones. When captured the stores restock with grenades. And Maybe even make them more expensive than they already are.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 05:38:25 AM
Make them findable and only restock when certain zones are captured? Like the 4 innerzones. When captured the stores restock with grenades. And Maybe even make them more expensive than they already are.
That's the worst possible solution.
So any dominating faction would always have a stock of nades? ;), which basically means they will be undefetable.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 05:43:09 AM
Though. If the dominating faction holds the fort... then they arn't getting the restock. Since they aready own it and not actively capturing it... But now that I think about it I don't think it works that way.... *sigh*
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 12, 2014, 05:43:35 AM
Does g'lauchers have smoke ammunition? They should!
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Fayfay on September 12, 2014, 05:48:15 AM
What about creating a new sort of equipment wivh drasticly increase a type of resist (laser, plasma, xplsions, etc...). And have to be set as passive in the second weapon slot, for example?

What about introducing some king of tactical shield wich have a chance to stop shots (of any kinds) and provides cover to teammates behind? The cons would be no weapon at the same time.

Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 12, 2014, 06:00:16 AM
Shield are really cool idea. Respect for it
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Captain Chilly on September 12, 2014, 06:52:18 AM
Suggestion. Well... I don't know. Maybe have grenade ammo not buy-able. Maybe make it a special only buy-able in extremely limited quantity and only available when a certain  zone is captured... Maybe make the grenade launchers uncraftable and only available to find or buy.
Hell... make it a reward for one of the special platoon only assignments/Zone Control areas that are being Planned.
Really I have no true suggestions. But I know that when this game is going to get popular its just going to be a grenade spam fest and the defending team is just going to sit with their back on the ground since grenades knock your ass out almost 100% of the time. *shrug*.
first of all, grenades are already quite expensive and very hard to find at the core, not to mention that grenade launchers are also rare exepnsive loot
second of all: dude, jsut fucking run, you'll be safe, i wasted  5 grenades on one guy before realising that it was useless  and that he was running to me with a punch gun so i pulled out my m16 and emptied a clip into his chest and he got split in half

twas beautiful
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 12, 2014, 08:21:42 AM
Shield are really cool idea. Respect for it
Shields are a silly idea ;P, imagine that you HAVE to have a person, to play as a shielder... immersive gameplay.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 12, 2014, 08:48:33 AM
you always can change a weapon and shoot from your second arm.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: wojciech on September 12, 2014, 09:06:59 AM
Shield are really cool idea. Respect for it

Ye plx introduce Braum and his shield from League of Legends
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Hans Landa on September 12, 2014, 09:52:43 AM
I don't believe that we will see mass Milkor fights. They are very situational. Snipers+suppression wreck them at long range and using them in close range is a suicide. The weapon requires a skilled operator to do any damage besides spamming a hex during defences.
One detail that would be great to be added: a visible animation for the flying grenade, make it even more dodgeable.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 02:07:25 PM
first of all, grenades are already quite expensive and very hard to find at the core, not to mention that grenade launchers are also rare exepnsive loot
second of all: dude, jsut fucking run, you'll be safe, i wasted  5 grenades on one guy before realising that it was useless  and that he was running to me with a punch gun so i pulled out my m16 and emptied a clip into his chest and he got split in half

twas beautiful

I don't even use GLs and I have 4 grenade launchers in my inventory and 100 shots. So they arn't as rare as you think. And aiming a grenade launcher isnt as hard as you think. Yea theres lag time to the shots... but anyone who is skilled enough and knows the lag time can lead a shot. And you proved another point... if someone is running up to you to counter your GL spam, you just swap guns to deal with them... then swap bag and start spamming the defending team in a ZC.


I don't believe that we will see mass Milkor fights. They are very situational. Snipers+suppression wreck them at long range and using them in close range is a suicide. The weapon requires a skilled operator to do any damage besides spamming a hex during defences.
One detail that would be great to be added: a visible animation for the flying grenade, make it even more dodgeable.

I don't know what faction your in. But when V-tech defends a point they have no less than 5 naders spamming them in any decent defensible area. And there isn't any long range line of sight places that allows a sniper+machinegunner suppress a GLer.. Since a GLer is not aiming at people and doesnt have to be in direct line of sight to do damage. All it requires is a tiny bit of situational awareness. And typically a GLer has snipers of their own defending them. So if a sniper does see a GLer hes usually in sight of 1 or more enemy snipers. Watch a ZC fight and just start counting the grenades that hit people. You'd be surprised at just how much they do.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: hell on September 12, 2014, 02:52:26 PM
I dont find GL's any good, yes they do knockdown, yes they do splash demage, but long fuse time and low demage make them somewhat good only in certain situations like sieges and pve since npc's doesnt run from geanades.

I suggest make grandes from Gl's more noticable. Like blinking red or something.

*MGL's granades now explode instanly ? wtf
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 12, 2014, 05:31:46 PM
This game PvP is mainly focused around sieges... so its more often than not you'll be in a situation where grenade launchers shine... and they shine so bright that even the great Egyptian sun god Ra dims in comparison... (okay maybe not that much but it was fun to type so shush)
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 13, 2014, 04:09:49 AM
Its becoming silly. Every lawyer I see now uses grenade launchers. The scoped nade launcher seriously needs to be removed or something. At least the non-scoped one has the limit on range so they have the close the gap a tiny bit. *sigh*
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Nunn on September 13, 2014, 06:48:59 AM
It does seem that the Zone capture fights are becoming more a matter of Grenade Spam and Snipers then anything else.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 13, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
It does seem that the Zone capture fights are becoming more a matter of Grenade Spam and Snipers then anything else.
Well heavy weaponry if freaking expensive compared to sniper rifles and nade launchers, throwing isn't a viable option (for obvious reasons). Sneaking is really weak and useless in mass fights (as an attacking character, not as an info gatherer.).
HtH is completely useless until devs will implement AC (since it works only when moving, it's the bread&butter of HtH).

So eh... Energy weapons? (they are still used heavily as heck).
Everything that's viable is being used at ZC, no wonder that it is like that ;).
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Perteks on September 13, 2014, 09:59:26 AM
It does seem that the Zone capture fights are becoming more a matter of Grenade Spam and Snipers then anything else.
Well heavy weaponry if freaking expensive compared to sniper rifles and nade launchers, throwing isn't a viable option (for obvious reasons). Sneaking is really weak and useless in mass fights (as an attacking character, not as an info gatherer.).
HtH is completely useless until devs will implement AC (since it works only when moving, it's the bread&butter of HtH).

So eh... Energy weapons? (they are still used heavily as heck).
Everything that's viable is being used at ZC, no wonder that it is like that ;).

Summoning seki who is in top kills and have only hth char :D
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 13, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
Is he a top-pvp char DURING ZONE CONTROLS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?
If not then what the heck are you writing about.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Perteks on September 13, 2014, 10:02:07 AM
And what is top pvp char for you ? What the fuck are you talking about you know there is different balance than bg> all  or something
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 13, 2014, 10:05:30 AM
And what is top pvp char for you ? What the fuck are you talking about you know there is different balance than bg> all  or something
Yes I do, where did I mentiong that something > everything else. I was talking about ZONE CONTROL ONLY, and NOTHING ELSE.
This whole thread is about it primarily.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Perteks on September 13, 2014, 10:23:42 AM
And you said HTH is useless when I know and saw that few times at ZC that HTH is equally dangerous
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 13, 2014, 10:29:49 AM
And you said HTH is useless when I know and saw that few times at ZC that HTH is equally dangerous
Equally dangerous as who? Spear throwers? Have you seen nuka cola factory map? Library map? I'm serious, go and check those some more and show how can possibly a melee character make himself useful, even if you try to ambush someone, you always trade, since you won't be escaping, and what's the point of that? Only viable option is to spend all money on smokes or to be a sneaker (whom snipers spot from 40+ hexes)
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Nunn on September 13, 2014, 11:26:50 AM
It does seem that the Zone capture fights are becoming more a matter of Grenade Spam and Snipers then anything else.
Well heavy weaponry if freaking expensive compared to sniper rifles and nade launchers, throwing isn't a viable option (for obvious reasons). Sneaking is really weak and useless in mass fights (as an attacking character, not as an info gatherer.).
HtH is completely useless until devs will implement AC (since it works only when moving, it's the bread&butter of HtH).

So eh... Energy weapons? (they are still used heavily as heck).
Everything that's viable is being used at ZC, no wonder that it is like that ;).

Its an issue with game design if only certain weapons are viable during a zone control, as such a solution should be found other then being content with it.

Its a shame that weapons, including heavier stuff, is so easy to find for a lot of high end and mid range players.
Would of been much nicer if heavy gear was the exception rather then the norm.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Acidic on September 13, 2014, 04:47:43 PM
Personally I dont mind any other weapon. Hell I got shot at by a .50 cal the other day. I saw him, he shot... I thought I was dead, but I had time to actually attempt to get out of the line of fire. And the ammo for that this is expensive.

But then I met a GLer and he shot, and i was on my ass... I get up run a whole 2 hexes and bam he shot and I was on my ass again bleeding out. The scoped nade launcher is actually frightening in and easy as pie to use. I ask all of you guys... go buy a nade launcher and just run into the core with 20 shots and tell me just how many kills you get. And thats not even talking about ZC where you know were the enemy is and you just have to spam nades down range... ((And with a 60 range for the scoped GL.... You are only getting out ranged by the purest of snipers... and if you are in the open getting out ranged. you are being dumb.))
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on September 13, 2014, 05:20:23 PM
Introducing night with lower vision range?
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Lidae on September 14, 2014, 08:10:20 AM
I would have to see it for myself to be sure, but what you describe sounds problematic for sure. Some easy fixes could include reduced range, reduced damage, reduced chance for KD, higher cost for ammo and so on. I'm sure there's a balance to be found.

But like I said, I want to see it for myself too, and I'm not convinced there aren't any good counter strategy to mass milkor. It might also not be a bad thing to have a hard counter to camping inside tiny rooms with your whole group. I'd rather see both attacking and defending teams be more creative with positioning and flanking. Sometimes it just takes a while before people think of a good counter to some strategies.

As for melees being useless in ZC, I disagree. The point is that you don't have to be melee 100% of the time, just like you can easily switch the milkor to something else if the situation requires it. Melees are excellent in close quarters, and I've seen plenty of ZC take place in very close quarters already. You can also make great use of super knockbacks for example to push enemies into your own lines, it can be really effective. But of course it's all situational, you can't just rush alone with your sledge into the enemy lines, you have to be clever about it. Definitely don't think melees require a buff any time soon. We do need something to replace AC though, some ideas are in progress that we'll try out shortly.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 14, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
Lidae,
I remember when we ZC'ed police station, I was stationed right by a single door in a long corridor. The plan was to not let any of Lawyer's snipers get into that room (we were 2 melees).
You know what happened in that tight exit which was 1 hex long? Some guy ran it and just 1 shot-knocked-me-out with a magneto-laser pistol (I had brahmin mk2) while also dealing 110 damage. As I laid down (and the other guy also) they just swarmed in and finished us with an additional shot each. Fun thing was that farther down the corridor we had a guy with a DSR rifle, who killed every single one of them. The end.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: xXxDudexXx on September 14, 2014, 09:17:40 AM
h2h definitely not useless in these fights i assure you, melee character will be built to full tank w/ psycho and quick recovery, damage resistance ( high FA maybe still testing this) and can be very effective against GL's. Also It's an AOE spread weapon so basically it comes down to not grouping together and spreading your team out in zone control, I haven't done zone control in this server but have played many versions of this game and I can assure you that position/tactics of fighting are everything in this game, if you know your enemy location/weapons they are using that knowledge is hugely important for your chance of winning, for example if you do zone control why not send out blue suit scout with high PE to watch for enemy, if he dies no big deal, but you learn where they are/weapons they are using and now you know how to fight your enemies. If you want to talk more strategy PM me.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 14, 2014, 09:29:22 AM
Wait a second, you haven't played any ZC on this server even once and you are talking about tactic? While also assuring me that HtH is somehow usefull in open spaces during massive fights?
All of the perks I have are defensive (toughness, double quick recovery, etc.), eating a psycho wouldn't help you in any way.
Example: Toughness and faction armour mk2 and Psycho equals shit ton of normal resistance. Guess what? DR\DT doesn't help you in any way if you get knocked out by every shot enemy makes (I have 8 END and a critical endurance perk, 9 ST and critical strength perk ha-ha...).
Today when (I believe) Lawyers went to the Library Park, I was just returning from the Core.  http://tinypic.com/r/2wf7eyx/8
1 second later that guy shoots me with a magneto-laser pistol 3 times, EACH OF THOSE SHOTS knocked me out, and the very first one broke my eyes. So eh... sorry for swearing, but fuck that.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: anonymousplayer on September 14, 2014, 09:40:49 AM
About grenade launchers - they were even able to knock me back/down with 155% critical strength - what else do I have to do to counter them?

Maybe add higher tiers of robes that give a lot of explosive resistance?
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Myakot on September 14, 2014, 09:42:16 AM
About grenade launchers - they were even able to knock me back/down with 155% critical strength - what else do I have to do to counter them?

Maybe add higher tiers of robes that give a lot of explosive resistance?
Knockbacks are countered by critical agility, not strength.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: cirn0 on September 17, 2014, 02:48:11 AM
Currently, we left in old artifacts from SDK where any explosive damage = guarantee knockdown + knockback.

We will apply the correct critical resistance checks against those effects in near future.
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: paragon on October 05, 2014, 04:08:34 PM
Milkor damage is like 30 per shoot ): bring it back to pvp!
Title: Re: Lets talk about grenade launchers.
Post by: Deathproof on October 06, 2014, 10:40:16 AM
Grenades can be easily dodged, they are not that easy to aim, they do not have even nearly as good range as any other sniper. Try finding tons of grenades to fire, gl with that. .

This.

And if server continues in direction to nerf anything that people started using in their tactic, we'll end up in counter strike version of fonline.