FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix
Game improvements => Developer Corner => Topic started by: cirn0 on September 26, 2014, 05:13:55 PM
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Sneak seems to be the meta and hot topic, especially with rerolls coming in, i'm seeing over 70% of ZC players sneaked for V-tec even.
I understand there is no penalty for weight or weapons.
I don't think its intended for sneak to be in this state, I personally don't like the whole invisibility system especially when we have made huge maps such as these. Hide and seek isn't the idea for large scale combat.
This is change aimed mostly for balancing sneak BG and Snipers.
For immediate changes :
- (~25%) reduction to total vision instead of flat 3 PE.
-Running with BG, 2-handed rifles will result in large sneak malus (~ 30%, 50% )
-Malus in sneak for just holding a 2-handed weapon (~ 30%, 50%)
Opinions and feedback are very welcome to help balance sneak.
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Everything is good with sneak. Nerf DSR .50.
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With 200 sneak, near a wall, in leather jacket one is invisible even to a sniper with max PE at ~30 (20?) hex. With -50 to sneak that would shift the detect distance to 40-ish? If so then a sneaker can still have his victim in weapon range using a heavy gun and vanish behind a corner at will, or at least have the first shot. As we have it now.
Using a non-silent weapon could short-circuit the stealthboy shocking its user (-100 ap) and breaking the device... but then silent weapons would need a buff.
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- (~25%) reduction to total vision instead of flat 3 PE.
Might as well go blind... :o
Don't forget Sight Range reduction for the sneaker, you can't see him but he also can't see you unless he has max PE and sight range perk.
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You basically just need to exclude DSR, AS50, medium machineguns and other heavy weaponry from being used in Sneak at all. The rest is fine.
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Without normal sneak it will be close to impossible to break DSR trains(10 guys standing behind each other with DSRs that kill you from 90+ range)...
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Is there any other way to break anal trains of 10 dsr's besides using sneak? IMO the .50BMG availability just needs to be nerfed hard.
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the .50BMG availability just needs to be nerfed hard.
Indeed
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-75% while holding heavy weaponry
-50% while holding two handed guns
-25% with HtH weapons and 1 handed pistols/SMGs
+/- 0% with sneak based weapons
is what i was thinking of
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To fix anal trains, you can reduce chance to hit/effective range/add critical misses when someone stands in front of you in 1-2 hexes.
P.S. Also, you can add ability to get in buildings right through windows via using them :3.
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Some other options:
-Eff range nerf while in sneak
If there is a player standing between you and your target:
-Penalty to hit chance.
-A chance to hit the player instead of the target. AKA critical miss.
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Also, if you plan a .50bmg availability nerf, a wipe of all ammo already collected in personal containers will be nice.
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Anal trains .... about those anal trains. I do believe they're in for some remedy.
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Agreed.
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-75% while holding heavy weaponry
-50% while holding two handed guns
-25% with HtH weapons and 1 handed pistols/SMGs
+/- 0% with sneak based weapons
is what i was thinking of
Agree with Ramon. I don't think anyone else would know better than one of the best sneaks in the game.
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Agree with Ramon. I don't think anyone else would know better than one of the best sneaks in the game.
Lold hard. He is melee. And his suggestion is all about melee. Why gimp a skill so hard that only one single class can benefit from it?
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Lold hard. He is melee. And his suggestion is all about melee. Why gimp a skill so hard that only one single class can benefit from it?
Because that's what it should be? A build that has a specific playstyle
Sneak as it is right now is just a straight up upgrade for EVERY weapon type
Edit: Now that i think about it, turning sneak into a 250% main skill would also fix the current problems of sneak being the must have secondary skill (250% being as effective as the current 200% detection wise of course). Would have to add a few more weapons for that though, especially low budget T1 options like the shiv or silenced pistols and maybe some high end T3 weapons too.
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Because that's what it should be?
Who told you that? I believe it can be balanced around all playstyles with the right penalties. Making it a wakizashi specific skill is basically throwing it away from the game. But those "numerous" melee fans would be happy yes, without doubt.
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I believe it can be balanced around all playstyles with the right penalties.
That's what I was talking about in my first post wasn't I?
Making it a wakizashi specific skill is basically throwing it away from the game. But those "numerous" melee fans would be happy yes, without doubt.
Where did i say something like this? I'd be happy if there were more actual sneak weapon options (aka needler and silenced SMGs need some reworking).
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Well anal trains are countered with smoke nades I've heard.
How about implementing a utility-slot item, that would counter sneakers? I.e. infravision goggles. Utility slots are not being used by players, this would fix both problems.
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I think one of big problem withs sneaks is the fact that they can deploy their weapon on sneak and just camp.
So Imo - Deploying should not be allowed for sneaks. This would disable DSR sneaks. Also PKS sneaks would be effected by this.
But yes, I like the idea of having goggles that help find sneakers - Better FoV for sneakers in front. But still very bad from back.
If you ask me, I think melee trolls should be nerfed most.
But at the moment I'm seeing wayy to much V-tech sneakers making these lineups in sneak and uncovering and killing everyone.
When John porno told me about sneaks in thsi server before it was released I told him this would happen. He said It would be considered a tactic for most small teams. But like I said. Its like a troll feature that ruins pvp.
But like john porno said once... if you are heavy geared and u turn off sneak u have higher chance to be bypassed or killed easier, Not sure how, But if it isnt like this it should be. :P
Second solution I have would be to not count people on sneak as ZC timer. I know this is complex cuz people can just run in off sneak (Get vtech score 1) then turn on sneak and fight.
Third Solution would be to make Stealthboys die out faster if other sneakers are looking at you. (Harder to organize a team of sneakers when ur stealthboy dies in less then 2 minutes of having 8 sneakers looking at you. or such. (Would need edits)
About Penaltys to having BG in hand That would not be a big deal. People would just put them in other hand and pull out when needed to shoot (Done in FOnline:Reloaded) But It only puts a huge cap between pro players and noob players when it comes to playing sneak so I think its a bad idea. Also If they nerfed ability to put weapon in other hand then they would just put it in inventory. then pull out when needed. aka not a big deal and same as before (Gap between pro and noob)
4th solution, If you shoot with a sneaker DSR50 - PKS you automaticly become Surpressed. And cant run for next 3-4 seconds. Decent solution In combined with first solution.
But I really think sneakers are fine. But when I see masive 10+ sneakers with bg's in zc its just bad. Perhaps make it so if u are 3hex from another sneaker u have -15% sneak ? Would make sense. If you beside 2 sneakers its -30% sneak on all sneaks
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Will the mechanic TLA had be viable here?
Mechanic:
Sneak is penaltied by the item that has the most "volume" in your INVENTORY (not in hands, mind you).
Example: power armours, 2h BG had 5-6 volume (which basically meant that if you have those in your inventory\equipped, your sneak will be penaltied by more than 80% of it's efficiency.)
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So i can carry a dsr in my off hand or in my bag and just whip it on and off between stealthing to bypass this?
Seems weird to punish them for what is in their hands at the time, that can change in a split second.
Why not malus stealth dependent on inventory weight, that way someone can't just loot every corpse in a 5 mile radius while stealthed with no danger to themself, and people can't troll the mechanic by hiding their gun in bag etc.
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-sneak penalties depending on weapon type and changing weapons unsneaks you
should solve most problems
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True, but switching say between fists and dsr and then restealthing after shooting is still possible.
Wouldn't it make sense that a man in light armor wielding only 1 or 2 light weapons and a stealthboy would be much better than a guy weighted down with 100 pounds of gear?
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Effective range nerf while using sneak+amplifying the damage recieved by the sneaker after desneaking, to add a high risk factor. Along with a anal train nerf, mass sneak becomes innefective and very dangerous tactic, but is viable for small groups. Your sneak penalty suggestions will delete a skill making it viable only for a wakizashi no brainer troll kills.
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When John porno told me about sneaks... He said It would be considered a tactic for most small teams.
And he was damn right in this thing. Tell me about another more effective tactic for small team versus skilled and organized swarm? Run or die? Or make bunch of wakizashi flippin ninjas?
All of you guys just saw the nice played strategy, and got pissed off, because its works...
Listen Landa's suggestions about nerf that anal trains to balance pvp.
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Sneak seems to be the meta and hot topic, especially with rerolls coming in
You misspelled "heavy snipers" or what?
i'm seeing over 70% of ZC players sneaked for V-tec even.
Perhaps that's why V-tec can't do anything?
Just forbid stealth deployment.
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btw stealthboy was supposed to cost some caps as devs said before release but its not really true because you can trade it for few stimpaks/bandages/drugs in bar so its like priceless
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If you nerf PE then you'll waste the point of sneak, to observe,avoid and tell enemy location.
Squad of snipers don't even have to sneak to own you without you seeing them, there isn't a problem here.
Heavy snipers are ridiculous, sneak isn't a problem here.
Melee sneak - OP
Flamer sneak - OP
In general, I don't have problems with sneakers, I managed to find 90% of them. Sneaking involves skill, its not just pressing button and running in front of your enemy and clicking mouse. If anyone will mention snipers here, they can own you without sneak anyway.
About anti-sneak device - if something like that would be implemented, than I suggest player wearing it has to have high sneak skill as well. Because if you counter sneaks simply by having an item, and sneaker has to invest SP, buy stealthboy and is limited with an armor in a way than there should be sort of investment to make for anti-sneakers.
Or you could just make traps easier/cheaper and people can put bunch of traps which will give away the sneaker. Or some sort of anti-sneak gun, if you manage to shoot the sneaker his stealth boy charges are drained.
People don't even use hex shot, which is fun and good anti sneaker tactic, when you see door opening no one is there, burst a clip into the air, you never know.
Current AoP status in eyes of the players - nerf sneak,nerf snipers,nerf criticals, nerf aimed shots, nerf KD's, nerf BG,nerf EW,nerf Melee
And after we completely cripple the game I wonder what will be next excuse when losing a fight.
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i'm seeing over 70% of ZC players sneaked for V-tec even.
Perhaps that's why V-tec can't do anything?
Or mb. couse V-tecs fight 10 vs 25+ groups?
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Heavy snipers are ridiculous, sneak isn't a problem here.
Agreed. Sneak is easilly countered by high sight range or other sneakers guarding your group, you dont need to nerf anything if .50bmg availability is lowered hard.
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i'm seeing over 70% of ZC players sneaked for V-tec even.
Perhaps that's why V-tec can't do anything?
Or mb. couse V-tecs fight 10 vs 25+ groups?
V-tech is the second largest faction, they shouldn't have much issues.
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V-tech is the second largest faction
Only on paper.
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Sneak only with 1hd weapon - problem solved
All items in eq count too
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Sneak only with 1hd weapon - problem solved
All items in eq count too
Most elegant solution I heard so far
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Yeah that would work too
should only count the weps in your 2 active slots though
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You could also go with a little bit more variety with sneak weapons, suppressed assault rifle a sneak energy weapon and even a silenced SVD or the like, and punish sneakers who don't use a sneak weapon.
For example using a non sneak weapon "reveals" you for 15 seconds, in which you cannot restealth, or perhaps trying to shoot a non stealth weapon while stealthed would cost double ap, making it impossible to shoot some weapons without desneaking first.
The stealth weapons would of course be less damaging than their not so sneaky counterparts, but the ability to use them while stealthed is their strength.
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Well anal trains are countered with smoke nades I've heard.
How about implementing a utility-slot item, that would counter sneakers? I.e. infravision goggles. Utility slots are not being used by players, this would fix both problems.
Good idea.
What about using motion sensor?
Could make it so motion sensor is used as a item on hand and you NEED to keep it on hand to see a map of people on movement (so you can't fight while looking at the motion sensor). I like the idea of having a designated sensor player who stays on the back reporting on enemy movements and telling you where to shoot sneaks, etc. Could be a nice thing for leaders to do, one idea is to make it require leadership to use. Might be a little cheesy tho.
I would make it use small energy cells, too. Lots of 'em.
Another sneak counter-measure could be... paint. Essentially, thrown something that explodes into a bunch of paint flying in all directions like a 'nade, invisible sneaker dude gets revealed if hit.
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How about some throwing item, but something that stays on the ground? Like a torch or something. Paint is good, but I doubt it'd be possible to hit soneo wit it :)
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I like the idea of stealth characters as scouts and intel gatherers so nerfs in there ability to achieve these goals would be a negative for the development of Tactics in ZC and other situations.
Nerfing their offensive capabilities is alright though.
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I think, Sneak only alvaible on Leather jacket, Combat leather jacket, Combat Leather coat.
Big gun = no sneak mode.
Rifle = malus
Pistol and smg = OK
2nd, The bonus sneak by wall is fucked, sneak are INVISIBLE on little room!!!
And need nerf Wakizashi, 300+ dmg per shot is just inacceptable.
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1-Just like in other servers, sneaked players should not be calculated for TC.
2-Sneaks should be forced to wear nothing but bluesuits or robes.
3-Prevent silent running when armed with ranged weapons, forcing combat sneaks to walk if they want to sneak while actively carrying a ranged weapon.
4-Remove the instant sneak after attacking, just like in other servers, unsneaked player should need to sneak out of ennemy FOV.
Sneak REALLY NEED to be nerfed, as it destroy the gaming experience of other players.
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1-Just like in other servers, sneaked players should not be calculated for TC.
2-Sneaks should be forced to wear nothing but bluesuits or robes.
3-Prevent silent running when armed with ranged weapons, forcing combat sneaks to walk if they want to sneak while actively carrying a ranged weapon.
4-Remove the instant sneak after attacking, just like in other servers, unsneaked player should need to sneak out of ennemy FOV.
Sneak REALLY NEED to be nerfed, as it destroy the gaming experience of other players.
I would rather see some anti sneak device or for example seeing sneakers if sneaked, then totally ruin a skill in game. You do have to sacrifice points to get to it you know ?
Some of the good ideas is to limit it only to leather family of armors, and not being able to deploy a BG while sneaked. And removing the wall bonus I guess.
Generally, people like to max out their char as offensive one without "wasting" perks/skills/traits on defensive capabilities.
I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.
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I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.
As someone who played sneaks on all fonline servers (I got thousands of kills as a sneak), I would say this... remove the sneak skill from the game, or make it so that sneaks are only scouts and not assassins, combat sneak is pure trolling! This is my opinion as a sneaker.
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I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.
As someone who played sneaks on all fonline servers (I got thousands of kills as a sneak), I would say this... remove the sneak skill from the game, or make it so that sneaks are only scouts and not assassins, combat sneak is pure trolling! This is my opinion as a sneaker.
Are we trying to create counter strike on fonline engine in the end ? Thousands of kills ! (Did you now?)
Removing a skill is stupid, finding a good solution so its not OP but not useless is what we're aiming for here man. Otherwise we'll all have same characters soon. Combat sneak is hardly pure trolling, heavy snipers and melee damage are pure trolling.
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After closely examining sneak and playing as one, noticed two bugs regarding sneak that actually buffed them.
Bug:
-Getting hit by hex fire does not cause de-sneak.
And also
-First shot on sneaker does not inherit the bypass penalty.
Just a reminder that when sneaked characters are hit, they automatically get their armor bypassed (probably +30~40% more damage).
So random hex fire burst into the streets might 1~2 shot a sneaker. (about 200+ from a PKS burst on sneaker).
I've fixed this for next patch and this will feel like a huge nerf to sneakers but this was just a bug fix.
I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
Planned ZC revamps will result in removal of sneak/single man caps as well.
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cirn0, you mean characters in Sneak won't count to the capping group? This might be interesting.
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I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...
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I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...
Well, seeing as how being sneaked you still can achieve max view range of 100. You have to deal with these weapons.
DSR 91 ER
PKS 56 ER
DKS 75 ER
Minigun 58 ER
And If we want to make it counter-able by hex firing on a street with no cover we have to nerf down sneak BG/Snipers sight range to just about PKS range.
Personally, I still am unable to come to a conclusion on sneak balance. I've seen the sneak strategy lose and win about evenly, one could say it takes less effort to camp sneaked but that's how I feel about sniper balls and rape trains as well.
I would like Simms opinion on the matter as I believe it is his platoon that is mainly using this strategy.
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i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing
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I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...
Well, seeing as how being sneaked you still can achieve max view range of 100. You have to deal with these weapons.
DSR 91 ER
PKS 56 ER
DKS 75 ER
Minigun 58 ER
And If we want to make it counter-able by hex firing on a street with no cover we have to nerf down sneak BG/Snipers sight range to just about PKS range.
Personally, I still am unable to come to a conclusion on sneak balance. I've seen the sneak strategy lose and win about evenly, one could say it takes less effort to camp sneaked but that's how I feel about sniper balls and rape trains as well.
I would like Simms opinion on the matter as I believe it is his platoon that is mainly using this strategy.
Sneak strategy is now strong, borderline OP against small to medium-sized groups (up to 8-12 including enemy sneakers). You can pick enemies off 1 by 1 from 'round the corners while being undetected by the rest of the group, maneuver freely across the map and not get cornered or suppressed to the point you can't change your position.
On the other hand, you cannot actually apply this kind of strategy to the large prime-time teamfights as it is. If you have a 20+ battlegroup and a couple of sneakers on your own, you can counter it pretty easily by
a) keeping your group tight
b) having long open ranges covered by at least 2-3 people with DSRs so it's too risky for sneaks to open up on them
c) screening your group with your own sneakers to prevent the enemy from getting closer
d) if you fight in the open, basically having more DSRs than the enemy helps a lot -- you can lose one in a sneaker attack but it'll be a suicide move for them. It applies to all sorts of rangefights, stealthed or non-stealthed alike.
Moreover, with the current defib mechanics it's not much of a problem to avoid irreplaceable casualties from long-range sneakers. If one of the group gets taken down by a sneaker salvo, you have plenty of time to revive him while sneakers change the position and restore APs.
So, basically, all-sneak and mixed (like 50%/50%) groups have slight advantage in maneuvering, but lack firepower and defence both to hold their ground and to force the enemy from their positions. When the location gets saturated by enemies, it becomes really hard to choose the terms of the fight as the zones are not really too big considering the 60-100 hex ranges the firefights occur at.
Why use combat sneak at all? It's good when you're outnumbered 2:1 (or even more) and you intend to inflict as many as possible casualties while taking as little as possible on your own. You cannot really prevent the enemy from capping the zone eventually (even if you get higher score, the zone will be recapped right after), nor can you cap and hold the zone on yourself, but you still decide when and where to initiate and to stop the fight.
Talking about proposed changes -- this:
Effective range nerf while using sneak+amplifying the damage recieved by the sneaker after desneaking, to add a high risk factor. Along with a anal train nerf
Plus, at the moment we've got a very DSR-heavy meta, "light fifties" being the weapons that grant 90% of kills every teamfight, both for sneakers and non-sneakers. Along with machineguns (up close) and wakizashis (ever closer), it's the guaranteed way to get a quick kill -- and the only one that works at all ranges and outranges every other weapon. In most other ways, there are still chances for the enemy to NOT die after a single salvo.
Changing the availability of these guns and ammo will do both things -- eliminate the DSR+sneak combo from mass usage and prevent reducing teamfights to 90-hex range wanking. To be honest, this was discussed by us on the first week of the game as .50 ammo and guns became widely available -- you can buy several hundreds each day and they get stacked by thousands in the end.
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i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing
This perk is an counter for long range sneekers and if you dont pick it, it is your foult you get raped by sneekrs 50bmg
And if you really nerf bg sneek you shoud remove this perk cuz whats point of it then
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As A Phoenix citizen said the role of a sneak should be reconnaissance and intel gathering, not what it is now.
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I would suggest starting with fixing the sneak bugs that cirn0 mentioned and lowering the .50 bmg availability. If sneak is still an issue after that, some effective range penalties can be applied. There is no point to lower the sight range of sneakers even more, since we lose the main purpose of sneakers-scouting.
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i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing
This perk is an counter for long range sneekers and if you dont pick it, it is your foult you get raped by sneekrs 50bmg
And if you really nerf bg sneek you shoud remove this perk cuz whats point of it then
You should try reading what the perk says
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Maintain the sight range, limit the range types of the usable weapons.
If a sneaker wants to run around with melee, pistols or SMGs then that's fine.
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If sneakers need a nerf, then why on the server so little sneakers? Really a lot of whining.
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Every second player i see out atm is a sneaker :P they have become very popular.
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then why on the server so little sneakers?
I think this is just a problem in BB, other faction always have at least 2-3+ sneakers. You can notice this just by watching some videos. Except family because toilet control no need sneakers. :P
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I posted this elsewhere, but it is probably my favorite solution so far, far from perfect, but still;
Categorising the weapons themselves might work out for the best (much like how armors effect sneak), light weapons could be carried in hand for no sneak minus (this could include light weapons that bring you out of stealth when fired too), medium weapons which inflict a malus to sneak when wielded in hand, and heavy weapons, which make sneak impossible when wielded in hands, and which break sneak when equipped.
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IMO problem is not in sneak itself but in that players with low PE - "tank-like" builds want to see sneakers as if they had 10PE - want to see sneakers get high PE and watchtower perk. On every fo server this debate exist... you "wasting" skill points on tag skill to get profits from it and not to have "useless sneak like ability". (and btw i dont have tagged sneak so not "whining", got FA and Doctor tag )
Really dont see the point in nerfing "sneak-assasins" becouse some good pvp players (who anyway will be OP with or without sneak cose they are just that good) are using it...
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Really dont see the point in nerfing "sneak-assasins" becouse some good pvp players (who anyway will be OP with or without sneak cose they are just that good) are using it...
When those same players are telling you it is too strong though, you know there is a problem.
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-75% while holding heavy weaponry
-50% while holding two handed guns
-25% with HtH weapons and 1 handed pistols/SMGs
+/- 0% with sneak based weapons
is what i was thinking of
+1
Still I would like to see 1 handed weapons and pistols without -25% nerf since they are desneaking you after firing.
Second one: While holding heavy weapons (Avengers, Rocket Launchers, DSRs) u can sneak, but only when standing still, if u move ( even walk ) u desneak yourself, just like if u were running without silent running perk. In terms of non game mechanic I would imagine this as guy standing in shadows near a wall or hiding behind something, using envoirment or shadows as his camouflage. It would be kind of 'passive' sneaking.
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Btw, all seem happy with this penalty on some guns.
Lets say you get -50% on two handed guns. You are usually spotted around what, 20 hex. So it means you'll be spotted at around 40 hex. And you shoot sniper from about 70-80hex. You won't change much....except some BG sneak combos.
Like some people mentioned, this whole "problem" is far from just sneaking.
BTW if its was really that OP; there would be hell a lot of more sneakers on server.
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Pick Watchtower perk and you will have no problem duno why is sneek problem
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Watchtower seems to be missing from the Wiki, only reference i see is it needing 100 stealth.
How does it work exactly.
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Gives no penalty for the angle in sneaker detection formula. Meaning you have same performance detecting sneakers in all direction.
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Meaning you have same performance detecting sneakers in all direction.
Is this 100% true?
I am asking because of this post:
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=130.msg573#msg573 (http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=130.msg573#msg573)
Where: Watchtower
If there was an antonym for tunnel vision, that would describe you. You detect other sneakers to your front sides just as well as if they were standing in front of you.
And in wiki about sneak:
Where Angle is given by:
front: 0
front sides: 1
back sides: 2
back: 3
I thought this perk changes formula for front sides to 0 only. Not for all sides.
Please correct me if i am wrong.
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as i know Watctower gives you abillity to see from front an sneeker no mater how long he is from you just if he is in your sight radius
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Since there are at least 3 threads about sneak its difficult to decide where to write but let it be here :
As far as i understand main issue is not with sneak skill but with sneak COMBAT. Sneak as a skill is determined to be "invisibility like" ability and that is ok imo so no reason to change angle-dettection, adding weight/volume modifiers ect. It suppose to be for more or less safe scavenging and scouting.
Better just use simple solution:
-Block attack mode in sneak mode with weapon that doesnt have "silent attack" trait.
-Add 50 ap cost to mannualy desneak/turn off stealthboy just like it is now with turning it on (50 AP cost to enter sneak)
-Lower silent death wakizashi damage.
It will mean that if you want to attack with weapon with no silent attack trait, first you will need to manually turn stealthboy off(-50AP) than attack with only 50 AP left to do anything. Basicly that resolves problem with sneak combat with non-silent attack weapons.
Please be user friendly and not "break" cool skill, like it was deformed on other fallout online servers - why copy something that is not perfect or even not good at all imo.
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i can accept some nerf with Sneak and BG sinergy... but i dont understand what a heck you are whining about small guns and sneak sinergy? just let the stealth snipers live with that DKS's already and dont force killing of whole skill with your "genius ideas"...
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-Block attack mode in sneak mode with weapon that doesnt have "silent attack" trait.
-Add 50 ap cost to mannualy desneak/turn off stealthboy just like it is now with turning it on (50 AP cost to enter sneak)
-Lower silent death wakizashi damage.
One more nice idea.
And watchtower should be buffed in some way.
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Sneak nerf for temporary gameplay bandaid fix as follows:
-15% total sneak skill holding all 2H smallgun example: [DKS, Remmington, AK47]
-25% total sneak skill holding all BG example: [DSR, PKS]
-40% total sneak skill holding Minigun or Rocketlauncher
and 2x the malus if you're running:
The values will be balanced around a 8 PE and 200% sneak scout being able to spot a sneak 200% 10 PE BG first directly looking at each other.
The values will be balanced around a 9 PE and 200% sneak scout being able to spot a sneak 200% 10 PE SG first directly looking at each other.
30% total for SG 2handed
50% total for BG
Cannot run with Rocket or Minigun
This is only temporary fix until a better solution is available, I aim to nerf the OP synergies and not the sneak gameplay. DSR & PKS balance is whole different issue that will be looked into as well.
That being said, I will work on giving more tools to both sneak and anti-sneak instead of just nerfing everything.
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I'm glad you know what you're doing ^^.
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Sneak nerf for temporary gameplay bandaid fix as follows:
-15% total sneak skill holding all 2H smallgun example: [DKS, Remmington, AK47]
-25% total sneak skill holding all BG example: [Minigun, DSR, Rocketlauncher, PKS]
and 2x the malus if you're running:
30% total for SG 2handed
50% total for BG
This is only temporary fix until a better solution is available, I aim to nerf the OP synergies and not the sneak gameplay.
That being said, I will work on giving more tools to both sneak and anti-sneak instead of just nerfing everything.
Yeah that's a decent bandaid, certainly not perfect, but no suggestion has been so far.
Will this only apply to the weapon currently in your hand? or to weapons in the second slot too?
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Sneak nerf for temporary gameplay bandaid fix as follows:
-15% total sneak skill holding all 2H smallgun example: [DKS, Remmington, AK47]
-25% total sneak skill holding all BG example: [Minigun, DSR, Rocketlauncher, PKS]
and 2x the malus if you're running:
30% total for SG 2handed
50% total for BG
This is only temporary fix until a better solution is available, I aim to nerf the OP synergies and not the sneak gameplay.
That being said, I will work on giving more tools to both sneak and anti-sneak instead of just nerfing everything.
Yeah that's a decent bandaid, certainly not perfect, but no suggestion has been so far.
Will this only apply to the weapon currently in your hand? or to weapons in the second slot too?
Cumulative penalty, if second slot is holding a weapon it will also add to the malus.
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RIP.
One question. 2x malus applies and for running and for walking in sneak or not?
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RIP.
One question. 2x malus applies and for running and for walking in sneak or not?
Running
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Nice, as harsh as it seems I like it.
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Great. Now make silent smg worth more then the spring needed to craft them :P
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Sneak nerf for temporary gameplay bandaid fix as follows:
-15% total sneak skill holding all 2H smallgun example: [DKS, Remmington, AK47]
-25% total sneak skill holding all BG example: [DSR, PKS]
-40% total sneak skill holding Minigun or Rocketlauncher
and 2x the malus if you're running:
The values will be balanced around a 8 PE and 200% sneak scout being able to spot a sneak 200% 10 PE BG first directly looking at each other.
The values will be balanced around a 9 PE and 200% sneak scout being able to spot a sneak 200% 10 PE SG first directly looking at each other.
30% total for SG 2handed
50% total for BG
Cannot run with Rocket or Minigun
This is only temporary fix until a better solution is available, I aim to nerf the OP synergies and not the sneak gameplay. DSR & PKS balance is whole different issue that will be looked into as well.
That being said, I will work on giving more tools to both sneak and anti-sneak instead of just nerfing everything.
So % is % of whole sneak or - % skill ?
For example 200 sneak +25 from armor +20 from Ghost = 245
and with DKS is it 245 - 245* 0.15 = 208,25 or 245 - 15 = 230 ? (Not that its precise but i would like to see big picture here)
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Great. Now make silent smg worth more then the spring needed to craft them :P
This
Needler and the silent attack SMGs need some love
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Great. Now make silent smg worth more then the spring needed to craft them :P
This
Needler and the silent attack SMGs need some love
Needler is perfect for crippler sneakers, it spams shots fast and Ko/KD's anyone who didn't smartly invest points into ST/AG. No need to tinker with it.
On the other hand silent SMG's certainly need love they're mostly useless.
OT : Nice fix cirn0 it will make sneakers less OP and you have option to invest in sneaking just to detect them.
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Needler has "more bleed" perk. :-[
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need decrease stealth boy spawn, sometimes can buying around 10-12 stelth boy, stealth boy must be rare like bozar or gatling laser
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Also it's too cheap to charge them with Small Energy Cells, fix this and make it chargeable with .50 BMG
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Also it's too cheap to charge them with Small Energy Cells, fix this and make it chargeable with .50 BMG
seriously it can be via dialog with npc change .50 bmg to charge
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I'd suggest it can be via dialog with an NPC trading your Mom's jewelry to charge it.
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need decrease stealth boy spawn, sometimes can buying around 10-12 stelth boy, stealth boy must be rare like bozar or gatling laser
might as well remove sneak if the stealth boy is "rare"
Also I have 2 Gatling lasers, they're not that rare.
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Since the current fix sneak is just bad. Its a 200 skill points invested to lose caps. If the current fix stays I would remove skill and make everyone be able to use sneak with just stealth boy.
There could have been more elegant solutions :
1. Buffing watchtower perk to detect sneak in all directions on 22 hex. (someone has to take perk just to detect sneakers, just as sneaker has to invest SP, fair trade).
2. Making item that you can use (with like for doc/defib, lets say 150 sneak SP) to detect sneakers which would also be rechargeable.
3. Seeing sneaker un-sneaks him, he can still run around and sneak, but once you see him he is obviously detected so he should be un-sneaked. ( I tried hex busting, since like 2-3 bullets hit him if I'm lucky the damage sucks. And using unaimed shots still won't do any harm and he can continue on his marry way behind first obstacle).
4. Making sneak only for sneaking weapons. (This would fix 99% problems everyone cried about)