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[Shangalar]

Seems the ability to "reshuffle cards" when having a defeat in PvP is really a strong point in favor of rerolling. Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use? Or in general are "losers" the only ones who'll reroll in any case during a PvP session?

[Kurwier]

dont let em fool you , i strongly believe paragon never heard of natures peace or a lazergatling or a turbo plasma rifle , but eh hes right EW is non existent in aop ...

combatants first legendary was a sneakweapon right ?

bahahahahaha i could go on but this thread is just hilarious ...

[paragon]

Seems the ability to "reshuffle cards" when having a defeat in PvP is really a strong point in favor of rerolling. Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use? Or in general are "losers" the only ones who'll reroll in any case during a PvP session?

I don't think there's an strict dependency on losing. If you can't seem to win with current team set, you are encouraged to try to change tactics and reroll. Although most of the time it needs to fill some unclosed holes. Like if you fight against multiple melee and have no Avenger/Minigun, you will get one even if you've won, because next time it might go differently and you can be overwhelmed easily. If you fight against PowerArmor you don't have specific anti-PA weapons which are often different common used, you will certainly have to bring some next fight or might be just unable to kill a guy.

In my team most of the rerolls are made by just 3-5 people. The rest are playing with the same build most of the time. Those players who sees weak points of the team and afraid of losing will most probably fill the hole themselves or being asked by the operation leader. Like if you're in the field without sneaker against enemy team having one, you'd like always to avoid open space. It means that you'll come to the zone with the enemy, take first acceptable position and will camp forever. Ability to reroll lets to be more flexible in such situations and answer to the enemy if he's using some hard-beatable tactics like camping buildings well-defended from range fighters with close combat fighters.

If you have limited amount of "reroll slots", you can not expect one person to be able to fill the hole all the time. For the team limited amount of "reroll slots" will mean that people who doesn't want to reroll will have to make it more often to carry the team.

[naossano]

So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun, instead of providing feedback to balance combat between melee and other non-minigun build and help the server, you would create a minigunner out of the blue and not report the issue with melee being invincible agains't anything but minigun. So, outside the ZC crowd, any wanderer in the core will be much longer at the mercy of OP melee. Hell, you can't report an issue if you can avoid it entirelly by using tool outside of their purpose.

[Kurwier]

blyad , why i have seen tecs camping with 3 sneaks then kurwa ... this whole thread shud be moved to river of tearz section

its like i said before better learn how to play a certain build before whining about rerollcost , melee can be beaten with everything not only a minigun , ive heard some sg weapons have supression too , ive also heard that criplling the legs should work so i dunno what your whole posts are about serious ... its like cryin that u were defeated because u did use what u had in the wrong way and then u blame it all o the minigun , which is hilarious too ...

[Niamak]

So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun

Like if you fight against multiple melee and have no Avenger/Minigun, you will get one even if you've won, because next time it might go differently and you can be overwhelmed easily.

blyad , why i have seen tecs camping with 3 sneaks then kurwa ... this whole thread shud be moved to river of tearz section

What are you talking about ?

Guys, focus! I know english class in different countries is a very interesting matter but we can't let free reroll win.

[naossano]

My point isn't about melee and minigun, but about the logic used to face that issue. Instead of trying to find a solution within your classes abilities and report it if not possible, you avoid the problem entirelly by creating a counter-unit on the fly. So if the problem exist, it remains forever and is never balanced by the dev team.

[RazorRamon]

Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use?

Yes, and that's the best thing about free (or minimum cost) rerolls. This adds another layer    to battles and keeps everything interesting.

[RazorRamon]

My point isn't about melee and minigun, but about the logic used to face that issue. Instead of trying to find a solution within your classes abilities and report it if not possible, you avoid the problem entirelly by creating a counter-unit on the fly. So if the problem exist, it remains forever and is never balanced by the dev team.

How is that a problem? Does everything need to be 50:50 against each other?

Should i cry to starcraft devs when i am building zerglings and enemy comes with aircraft? No, I should change my strategy

[Kurwier]

Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use?

Yes, and that's the best thing about free (or minimum cost) rerolls. This adds another layer    to battles and keeps everything interesting.

it just adds another layer of timespending with other things than actually playing the game , plus it pretends the casual player from learning how to play a certain class because all pros will tell em to reroll after every battle because they think he sucks because he uses the wrong weapon while in fact its not the weapon which makes a casual player weak its more the experience he has in general which can never develop while rerolling more then playing the game ... we really just talk about these level 24 perks and some other variations which from my point of view arent making such a big difference , so all these people who cry for free rerolls just want to go with the best avialable level 24 perk , which fits to the weapon they did choose ... imo this is some bullshit ofcourse u can make 10 alts for that suppose , imo its way better if u add some rerollcost to that so people really think about what they prefer and what not because killing melee isnt only possible with a minigun BLYAD ... one of the things i like abut aop the most is the design itself , you arent forced , like some people described here , to take just certain stuff with your x y build ... aop is in most parts balanced to these aspects and has some wide variation within its gameplay which i enjoy personally ... and there is no single argument which speaks against a cost for rerolls , ofcourse u will get your free reroll if balance is touched by some update , or like stated before u have to pay if u want to go with the specialised perks each time because u think it makes u better which is a lie in the end from my point of view ......

you can talk about this subject whole days , nobody is saying anyway that rerolls gonna get rekt , its just that it will cost something which is fine imo ... otherwise my counter argument is why does all the other stuff ingame cost me ingame cash caps , dollarz whatever ...

[naossano]

Ramon >

How is it a problem ?


You mean beside those mentioned in this post ?

So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun, instead of providing feedback to balance combat between melee and other non-minigun build and help the server, you would create a minigunner out of the blue and not report the issue with melee being invincible agains't anything but minigun. So, outside the ZC crowd, any wanderer in the core will be much longer at the mercy of OP melee. Hell, you can't report an issue if you can avoid it entirelly by using tool outside of their purpose.

Or the fact you didn't find a solution agains't that build ingame by trying better positionning, use of cover etc... to verify that it is indeed impossible to win agains't melee (as an example) or, by imaginative and find actual solution agains't it. Instead of that you magically create a new unit that is OP vs melee ? How creating a new problem solve will the first one ?

[RazorRamon]

Still dont see the problem. So you do want all weapons to be equal in all situations.

Im lucky you arent in charge of game design or balancing, would make for a boring experience.

[paragon]

Niamak, I didn't get what you wanted to say.

[Niamak]

Honestly, I also don't get it how power of interpretation is so strong.

Melee vs minigun was just an example for the question "do winners reroll?". Yet, Naossano and Courier interpret it as "melee is OP minigun is OP". Courier's regular daydreaming goes on about "vtech always many sneaks!".

At least, Naossano raises the interesting subject "after a loss should you change role instead of trying to make better use of positionning, cover, timing, etc...". Paragon answered earlier by saying changing role would allow more flexibility/options to beat opposing team.

I would disagree here, giving too much flexibility to the player is not always the best idea. In games, restrictions and rules make things interesting. For example, in poker, would having 4 sets of hand and unlimited ability to reshuffle your hand make the game more interesting ? Not really, what is interesting is the ability of a player to make best use of his limited ressources within fixed restriction and game rules.

All this to get back to the subject "git gud or reroll" we had earlier in this thread.

suka let's put more nails in this free reroll coffin blyad HAHAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious no

[paragon]

In the same time in poker if you see that current situation with your hand most probably won't work, you give up and get new one.
Rerolling would be same as getting new one instead of leaving the table.

[Niamak]

Anyway, poker is a shitty game.

[naossano]

Still dont see the problem. So you do want all weapons to be equal in all situations.

You have to learn layers ramon.
Not all weapons should be equal, but all classes should have some chances of winning vs all classes. Even if some classes has better chances of beating other classes in some types of battlefield, that should never be 100% of winning. The fun of fight is that both groups have some chances of winning. If or non-minigun character (Once again Melee and minigun are just example, it isn't saying that those are currently OP on aop) is walking the core and encounter the melee, and the melee manage to corner him, that non-minigun character, if good and ressourcefull, should have some chance of beating the melee even if the melee is a better class that him on that battlefield. If the melee wins 100% of the time agains't that char, something should be done to balance it.

[paragon]

Talking about offtop.

[paragon]

Spoiler for Hiden:

RPG in video games usually means having character progression through pve or pvp. Free unlimited reroll goes against character progression since you will only experience character progression once instead making alts. You could argue character progression in some games is a grind and boring but then the game is at fault.

In the end, we might end up with the most complex reroll system... save states, free reroll for certain patches, price based on character lvl and number of reroll done during the day... what else ?

Just watched the vid and it looks like it's an argument in benefit of free rerolls, thank you.