FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix
Game improvements => Suggestions => Topic started by: Chirurg on May 21, 2015, 08:08:18 AM
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Hi,
Have you ever suffer from swarm fights? Did your pvp session ever end because enemy faction was greatly outnumbering your forces? Are you tired of fights going 8 vs 14 at some point every night? Or maybe you are just looking for a fair pvp fight with fair vs numbers?
Suggestion:
I suggest adding 4 small town outside of pheonix. Each town would have its own Outpost (PVP map), which cannot be accessed from world map. The town will be controlled by the faction which is in control of its Outpost.
Here are some rules:
Town control can be started only by a designated team from within faction base (similar to our current assignement disposition).
Each town has a minimal and maximal player limit to start the Town Control event (town names are just proposals):
- Glendale: 6 -10 players
- Mesa: 5 - 8 players
- Fountain Hills: 4 - 6 players
- Santa Cruz: 2 - 4 players
If more people try to enlist for town control, it will simply not allow it.
Outpost maps can't be accessed from world map, but corresponding towns can.
Ok so once for example a team of 6 enlisted to take the control over Glendale, they are being transported directly from base (a'la caravan) and the team leader gets to choose whether he wants to enter from NW, NE, SW or SE (possible to scout). Outpost is protected by some faction NPC's and the invading team has to kill the NPC's to start the timer, which shows exact numbers of invaders.
Only then other factions can react, however they also have to enlist for Town Control response with SAME EXACT NUMBER OF PLAYERS. Once a response team is enlisted, they will be also transported directly from base caravan style and the leader can scout and select entrance point.
Fight is until death or desertion. No reinforcements can be supplied. Leaving the outpost via grid drops you on world map and it's impossible to rejoin the fight. Winning team takes over the outpost and the corresponding town. I suggest there are some bonuses from controling each town, like access to rare resources or variety of items in shops, or more caps income. New Town Control event can't be started on that map until all players have left the outpost or possibly after a cooldown of some sort.
It would be more like team deathmatch maps, however I believe it would fit the story and lore better than just having a stray deathmatch maps...
Who would use it the most? Smaller factions, factions that have less players but these prayers tend to be of superior experience and quality. That way even if a faction is swarmed and greatly outnumbered, it would still have a chance to control their fair share of the game world if they are organised and good enough. Fights 6 vs 11 get booring after some time, don't you agree?
Additionally, controlled towns would give opportunities for variety of assignements. Just imagine the possibilities!
Feedback appreciated :)
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We had the exact same suggestion with the XvX hinkley style like a month ago.
I don't like it because you seem to think only numbers matter in a fight. This is wrong as gear and experience are also factors. Moreover, equipment choice is very important, far more than on other Fonlines.
Of course the swarm is real, I don't like to get swarmed either, but I've been to several fights while we could won or at least fight despite being outnumbered, because of decision making, good usage of grenades, good positionning, communication, etc..
There are two issues in your suggestion that are the same as the previous instanced pvp suggestion :
- Core will get even less populated, there are not many core players left (not only because of Reloaded wipe), and you want to make new pvp zones.
- PvP team won't accept casuals or newcomers as they will want the most efficient team and have the enemy has lowest people possible. So what will happen to newbies ? They will go to empty core, get bored, then leave the game, or they will teamup with other newbies to go to instanced pvp and let's face it, they gonna get rekt big time, same conclusion, after some time they will stop.
Again the main thing about faction is to allow new people to join experienced pvp players and learn from them, then become part of the Fonline community. And this is easy only on AoP. I would like AoP to stay THE server casual/noob friendly.
Last thing, when it comes to instanced pvp with low numbers (2-3-4 people), builds variety will disappear. I do love the weapon variety in AoP and I feel like having 2v2 3v3 etc would make full sneak / full melees / camping specialists / etc teams and i'm not sure it would be for the best. For instance, graviton weapons have been implemented and they seem nice, but I don't see them in a 2v2 or 3v3.
Maybe make this suggestion for next season when there will be more people playing. And I'm not saying there is no swarm issues, I'm just saying this suggestion won't help the AoP gameplay experience imo.
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Cant really make an informed decision on your suggestion as I don't know the current state of PvP. My worries with arenas/controllable towns outside the core is that it may damage the population of core goers. Other things too, but i would just be echoing Anza if I typed them here.
Just had to say.
Glendale.
Mesa.
Fountain Hills.
Santa Cruz.
10/10 for using locations in Arizona.
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ANYTHING THAT GIVES EQUAL PVP +10000!!!!!!
However I don't like the idea of adding pve, no pve before you start timer. But I think my suggestion was better with the npc Guy and teleporting to a location to fight equal numbers.
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Not fond of the idea involving emptying Phoenix or forcing noobs out of fights, but swarming is indeed one of the issue that prevent the server from being complete.
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Open world pvp implies you will have swarm. Even if not all the time, you will have swarm, this is part of the meta in an open pvp. You cannot expect to have same amount of people connected and willing to fight in the opposite team each time. And again number is not everything, if you get that 5v5 instanced pvp, you will start whining about something else for sure.
In all MMOs i've played, there are always people who believe the game has to adapt to their playstyle, and not the opposite.
-> "They are 10 we are 5, no point playing, please nerf swarm"
-> "I dont have t3 weapons, no point playing, please nerf t3"
-> "I can't play more than 1 hour a week / i dont like farming, please nerf hoarding"
-> "I play in EU timezone, please nerf 'night' capping"
I will say it again, and it is not in an aggressive way, but if you cannot stand being outnumbered, why do you play in a open pvp game anyway ? So many free2play instanced pvp games with good graphics out there.
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We had the exact same suggestion with the XvX hinkley style like a month ago.
I don't like it because you seem to think only numbers matter in a fight. This is wrong as gear and experience are also factors. Moreover, equipment choice is very important, far more than on other Fonlines.
Of course the swarm is real, I don't like to get swarmed either, but I've been to several fights while we could won or at least fight despite being outnumbered, because of decision making, good usage of grenades, good positionning, communication, etc..
There are two issues in your suggestion that are the same as the previous instanced pvp suggestion :
- Core will get even less populated, there are not many core players left (not only because of Reloaded wipe), and you want to make new pvp zones.
- PvP team won't accept casuals or newcomers as they will want the most efficient team and have the enemy has lowest people possible. So what will happen to newbies ? They will go to empty core, get bored, then leave the game, or they will teamup with other newbies to go to instanced pvp and let's face it, they gonna get rekt big time, same conclusion, after some time they will stop.
Again the main thing about faction is to allow new people to join experienced pvp players and learn from them, then become part of the Fonline community. And this is easy only on AoP. I would like AoP to stay THE server casual/noob friendly.
Last thing, when it comes to instanced pvp with low numbers (2-3-4 people), builds variety will disappear. I do love the weapon variety in AoP and I feel like having 2v2 3v3 etc would make full sneak / full melees / camping specialists / etc teams and i'm not sure it would be for the best. For instance, graviton weapons have been implemented and they seem nice, but I don't see them in a 2v2 or 3v3.
Maybe make this suggestion for next season when there will be more people playing. And I'm not saying there is no swarm issues, I'm just saying this suggestion won't help the AoP gameplay experience imo.
I respect your opinion but strongly disagree with the points you made. Of course I do take realise that it's possible and somewhat common to win fights while being outnumbered. Heck even yesterday myself and Data won vs 4 V-tecs. This does not change the fact that fights tend to be hugely unbalanced more often than not, which more often than not causes people to ragequit if their pvp team loses few times in a row mostly because of being in constant disadvantage: AND THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT DECREASES CORE POPULATION.
I believe my suggestion would suffice as an alternative to the common rage-quitting because of pvp numbers imbalances (im not talking about minor imbalances like -/+2 etc). Right now when enemy numbers increase and your team numbers shrink with each fight, it's "the end of PVP for today" - also for people that would still want to continue fighting - Town control would be also an alternative for those people... And also people who simply rather fight in small, manageable teams.
Please read my logic argument: PVP is PVP. Alternative to have participant numbers wise fair PVP = MORE PVP. MORE PVP = Better for game, Better for everyone.
Core population suffers mainly due to uneven faction numbers. You can't argue with that. This suggestion would rather activate slumbering players from lesser faction rather than steal player base from current two dominators - Other factions deserve a chance too!
PS. Please bear in mind that PVP arena maps have been added to the world map. Aren't you scared that these will impact core population? Even if that would be the case and we would face the forseen problem, town control could simply replace deathmatch maps just to make the lore and story more consistent - and game mechanics less... deathmatchy like - It's supposed to be MMO or not?
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Dude tbh i dont post about that stuff normally but aop is a pvp server , and fonline is mostly crowded with pvers so what do you expect ...
and to be more honest i dont even liek the idea of outposts but what i really liek is the core itself as replication of an world map ...
many people including me always said that it needs more pve in it , to talk in a language some fonliners understand ... i would like to see core as one big reno area , no bullshit hub or ncr were u are safe ... traders here and there like multiply other options would make this game really unique ... but in end i think people are feared of no safe pvp area , assignments already did proove it ... that most of em prever to do some pve in their holes rather than going into core to kill some stuff ... dont come now with wasteland is harsh while all other servers arent really harsh ... i could go on but fuck it ...
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Wanna make sure that core population does not suffer from such changes (including the deathmatch map addition)? Let's take it even further and make it worth it to fight specifically within the core.
How? Every 4 hours, the faction shop gets a chance of spawning one T3 gear. The % chance depends on the number of zones controlled. Base chance 32% +3% per zone controlled up to 95%. Items will not spawn if your faction did not participate in core PVP (total amount of 20K fighting exp was not gathered from the fights). That way faction would still strive to cap zones. Mechanics abuse due to night cappers would be limited due to fighting EXP requirement. People are encouraged to actually fight within the core.
This suggestion could be still tweaked but right now there's no real pressure on capping core zones or participating in core pvp other than for PVP itself.
And no. It's not about game adjusting to niche player "style". It's about making the game more healthy and enjoyable. If something is not broken you don't repair it but if it obviously causes trouble it's our responsibility to suggest improvements. I don't mind swarms and I'm always the first to fight - even when outnumbered, but my pvp sessions end before I want them to due to other people complaining and quitting. I like a challenge but no, I will not fucking go 2 vs 6+ because that's just suicide and nothing more and nothing fun about it.
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You did not understand what i wrote, you are basically saying I want fair pvp, with equal numbers.
What you do not understand is that when you have 5v5, there are still factors that can make a team dominate the other, and you dont want to take that into account. Thinking you would go again and again after losing against the same team 5v5 is wrong, you would not, you would do as you do now : "the end of PVP for today".
Swarm is an issue indeed, however it is not 100% of the pvp balance so no you wont fix pvp balance by doing instanced pvp.
The team deathmatch events are nice imo because you do not choose your team. So you have to team up with whoever gets in your team, including casuals/newcomers.
Your last suggestion is actually way better and though it needs to be polished, adding xp won factor during ZC can be a good thing to avoid empty capping etc.
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Wanna make sure that core population does not suffer from such changes (including the deathmatch map addition)? Let's take it even further and make it worth it to fight specifically within the core.
How? Every 4 hours, the faction shop gets a chance of spawning one T3 gear. The % chance depends on the number of zones controlled. Base chance 32% +3% per zone controlled up to 95%. Items will not spawn if your faction did not participate in core PVP (total amount of 20K fighting exp was not gathered from the fights). That way faction would still strive to cap zones. Mechanics abuse due to night cappers would be limited due to fighting EXP requirement. People are encouraged to actually fight within the core.
This suggestion could be still tweaked but right now there's no real pressure on capping core zones or participating in core pvp other than for PVP itself.
And no. It's not about game adjusting to niche player "style". It's about making the game more healthy and enjoyable. If something is not broken you don't repair it but if it obviously causes trouble it's our responsibility to suggest improvements. I don't mind swarms and I'm always the first to fight - even when outnumbered, but my pvp sessions end before I want them to due to other people complaining and quitting. I like a challenge but no, I will not fucking go 2 vs 6+ because that's just suicide and nothing more and nothing fun about it.
i had most the fun while being outnumbered most the time , just make sure u go with right people ... we even managed to make em flee when i was only with my nigga against 6+ , plus your t3 suggestion sounds boring ...
suggest something more thought out like controlling zone with timewindows other requirements like rare spawn from that are or something like dat not just simple exp requirement ...
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But exp requirement is a good basis to work on to make controlling zones more attractive :)
It would help avoiding empty capping (due to late hour or swarm). Of course it would need to be thought of more, how to avoid people leaving zone so the one capping get no reward for instance etc
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Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.
Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary % over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.
I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.
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Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.
Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary % over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.
I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.
Fuckin this. ^
I have never seen an MG42 in AoP yet. Lost forever in lootpiles of people.
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Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.
Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary % over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.
I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.
Ill never see Hailey's gun again :(
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In all MMOs i've played, there are always people who believe the game has to adapt to their playstyle, and not the opposite.
-> "They are 10 we are 5, no point playing, please nerf swarm"
-> "I dont have t3 weapons, no point playing, please nerf t3"
-> "I can't play more than 1 hour a week / i dont like farming, please nerf hoarding"
-> "I play in EU timezone, please nerf 'night' capping"
What you qualify as convenience fix are actual flaws that can be fixed to attract a fair number of player.
Even night capping could be fixed (as long as it is actual night capping. People that purposly take advantage of the lack of opponements to take zones)
Point 2. and 3. are already fixed by having balanced gear, easily available even for casuals, and more involved allies to cover your ass. (or yell at you, but you can still turn off TS/mumble and ignore them)
It is not because the dev were too lazy in the previous server you visited that those flaws were features.
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I think you need to read before replying Nao ;D
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You did not understand what i wrote, you are basically saying I want fair pvp, with equal numbers.
What you do not understand is that when you have 5v5, there are still factors that can make a team dominate the other, and you dont want to take that into account. Thinking you would go again and again after losing against the same team 5v5 is wrong, you would not, you would do as you do now : "the end of PVP for today".
The other factors are: gear, skill, cooperation. These are HEALTHY factors that can influence your win chance against opposing team. If your example 5 vs 5 team keeps loosing there are following options: Get better, start using your legendaries / get better gear, improve your tactic. All healthy factors.
What are your options for contantly losing due to team size disadvantage (+4 for example)? Get more people to join your team and that's not really possible given that we have limited number of active players in each faction. And yeah you could reach for: using better gear or improving tactics, but I wanna see you risking your legendaries to fight in huge disadventage just to have a slim chance or getting your small team so good that it can beat an army of players twice its size.
PVP is never fully fair because if it was, it would be 50% win ratio each time. But there are healthy factors (skill level, team communication and tactics) that tip the scales in your favor and unhealthy that just make people powerless (wanting to PVP but being outnumbered 2:1 for most fights for example).
So just to clarify: Having Town Outpost Control or any other lore friendly instanced PVP as an ALTERNATIVE to core fights would in my opinion just encourage players to stay IN THE GAME instead of logging out once each evening it reaches a point where PVP becomes hopeless.
Just make it a prefered option to cap core zones over town zones due to rewards / prestige / whatever and we have a healthy symbiotic relationship between two forms of PVP.
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Ok that's good, you know agree that there are other factors than numbers. And while I do agree the other factors are healthy as you say, people might not share your point of view. If some people enjoy improving their skills, and search for new tactics, some people might not.
Let's say you are playing with your team on the Lawyer mumble. You have voice communication advantage over people who cant use that for whatever reasons (wife, no mic, etc). So it is unfair that you can use that and not others right ? Moreover this is a third party program to gain advantage on the game, isnt it even more unfair ? To your eyes no, but to people who cant use voice communication it might.
So again, I am saying you are forcing your way of playing to others and that is the bad thing, and I say that even if I share your playstyle point of view. This is a MMO, open pvp, and it works on a lot of games. People find how to counter numbers on those games, and even if there are always people upset about that (no exception here), this is the gameplay of an open pvp game. Why not test an instanced mmo ? If numbers matter that much to you, at least give it a try. I do say that without any ill thought back.
Also again, in the current playerbase state, having another place to pvp will empty the core even more, I still dont think it is a great idea.
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The other factors are: gear, skill, cooperation. These are HEALTHY factors that can influence your win chance against opposing team. If your example 5 vs 5 team keeps loosing there are following options: Get better, start using your legendaries / get better gear, improve your tactic. All healthy factors.
I don't consider your "get better gear" to be any healthy for me.
It's much preferable for me to spend time recruiting, than to farm for better gear.
Some players have more time they spend in game in whole - having ability to get better gear over people who instead have more friends. And more skill.
As a result, I don't see how "having a lot of friends" is not healthy.
Good games I know let you to kill swarms being alone. E.g. my kill-death ratio in insurgency is often 4:1.
My experience shows that it is possible in AOP. I've seen 1 melee killing 4 people 2 times in the building yesterday. I'd bet Windrunner team can pretty much 5v10 of casual v-tec players.
All those are not points to claim that arena is not needed.
But as uncontrollable unpublic area, arena should not increment the amount of resources available in the open word by any means. Means, being rewardless.
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Exactly, assuming his own opinion to be the right way to play is not good :)
And yes time spent on game can be seen as fair ("dedication reward") or unfair ("nolife over skill") depending on your point of view, making grinding healthy or not.
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Numbers don't mean too much unless there is an overwhelming difference.
I think some factions learned to deal with a lower player base in their factions and became better as a result.
Overall, I am against anything that detracts from going inside the core.
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Numbers don't mean too much unless there is an overwhelming difference.
Indeed, the only complains are about those. Nobody is complaining when it is 2 vs 3 or 7 vs 10.
Anyway, "the dedication reward" and "nolife over skill" can and should be balanced by gaining like 1% more efficiency by spending more time on the server, and feel rewarded, while not having an overwhelming advantage agains't the guy who play one hour a day.
I don't get why there is some insisting on maintaining flaws just because they existed in some other servers. Failing to balance some areas is not a feature.
The game should be fun for everyone, not just the guy who spend 24h a day on it, the one who have a team of 20 people or the one who started the game 6 months ago. It should also be fun for the new guy that register in the brahmin boys HQ tomorow, can only be there once a week and have no knowledge in character planning.
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^you sound like an american^
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As the world map gives away, we do have an outpost feature planned and while it will not neccesarily make for "fair" pvp (whatever that is, cause it's an arbitrary definition) it will certainly make sure to entice some pvp in the first place.
As of now, arenas would only come in the form of events and not as a standard feature. Last night on reloaded was a good example on how arenas negatively impact open PvP games; the town controllers dont have any enemies to fight cause everyone else is in hinkley, playing the 1hexing simulator. Back in the day, TC was the only way to get any meaningful PvP and with an arena like that, it takes away the motivation of some people to organize for tc when they can just pifipi in arena.
Of course it would be possible to enforce a certain playercount in each team for certain battles, but it just against the nature of open PvP. Having the freedom of going alone with shitgear or with 20 people in top gear is what separates fonline from the usually 5on5 moba or 20on20 wow battleground. It was a design decision to not have that in the game and that's that. It's like asking for axes and bows and magic in battlefield or a skill tree in CoD (unless the series is so shit now, they actually have that).
If players want fair pvp in an open world mmo, they would have to organize it themselves. I've seen it happen on other servers and the only thing that prevents is people actually not giving too much of a fuck about fair pvp in the end. Not knowing what your enemy might bring is also part of this game.
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"it takes away the motivation of some people to organise for tc when they can just pifipi in arena."
It means only 1 thing: TC doesn't worth it to organise. In AOP it's because simple inability to fight (e.g. you don't have enough people to be any effective, you don't have enemy willing to answer, you play on significantly lower level (skill, gear))
If ZC takes 30 minutes of organisation to die in 2 mins without shooting a bullet, people would rather not play at all. You'll say, git god, I'll ask: how?
The answer is arena. Which is unrewarded private zone, suitable to pvp: competitive/controllable/training and nothing else.
If open PvP is crippled to the state, that people don't want to participate it, then you know that game have some problems. Banning "arenas" won't help it, instead it'll just push people out of the game completely.
The simple form of arena right now: x people in one mumble created x characters in different factions, creating contested zone and practicing with each other, healing and resurrecting each other when needed. As result: many OP legendaries, "free" caps and reputation, and confusion for other players, joining the zone randomly - they are gonna be attack by alliance of different faction players, could be from players from their faction. The only advantage is that you may try to organise the pvp against them, but overall I find this situation out of what it should be.
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Like in any mmo, arena kills open world pvp. Most people prefer fast food over haute cuisine.
(http://i.imgur.com/CxtczW3.jpg)
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Like in any mmo, arena kills open world pvp. Most people prefer fast food over haute cuisine.
(http://i.imgur.com/CxtczW3.jpg)
Fantastic post.
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Niamak, didn't see you cooking much around. Overwise I would gladly join....
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@paragon
Dont we have a pretty good example in hinkley on 2238? If an arena simulates ZC but is much easier, then there's no need for ZC. If arena is not like ZC, it also wont do much good in the way of training people. Now you can argue about the shape that hinkley came in, but I still think it's a proof of concept.
Another thing is, even if not everybody plays arena then, those few who do might be the ones that are missing in the main team so the rest of them cant ZC and also join arena.
Another funny example was early Dayzmod where people spawned with a makarov instead of being unarmed. It lead to a lot of people just duking it out with pistols in the spawn locations rather than exploring the world. The basic problem is just that AoP is a player driven game, in the current state way more than other servers which gladly have 90% of the server pop do random encs. Every player who stays in the arena all day does also not contribute much to the rest of the game.
The way to go here is not making an arena because ZC is too harsh, but rather make ZC more accessible.
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I do like that devs tend to push AoP into. To emphasis on what John said :
- It is an open world pvp, and as such, it comes to players indeed to shape pvp as we want. In DaoC Ys server (open pvp with swarm on one realm > the 2 other realms, + night capping castles), players from all 3 factions managed (after months of debating) somehow to set hours for capping castles. What were the consequences ? People had more fun, and people were actually trying to log at those times, making pvp occur everytime. They even agreed later on letting a zone for 8v8 battles (where other groups/swarm dont add fight in progress). Clearly we are far from that in AoP, but it is possible to achieve as players.
- Instanced arenas will be bad for AoP by removing people from core/zc. As said above, why would I go do ZC (with all the waiting time) while i could fastfood pvp in Hinkley ? About the damage on the server, look at GW2, they had great expectation with having both open-world pvp (not totally ok but close to), and instanced 5v5, they even planned on having e-sport on 5v5. It didn't work well, as you had pve people, rvr people, 5v5 people, and they were not mixing well together, making 5v5 quickly empty.
- About what paragon said on current arena with possible exploits : this is why we players can't do anything good but complain on swarm/night capping etc. Instead of trying to find solutions as players, we exploit to hamster. Having an arena will not help.
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make me arena master , i will make sure they pay right taxes to enter the pit ...
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Only form of Arena I support is one for blood-sports and duels where members of all factions come to see someone settle scores, rivalries or simply blood-sport, betting included.
One thing that I think would be much cooler and fairer than Town Outposts Control as a fair form of Zone Control would be something like a Sierra Caves-style dungeon.
I loved going to the Sierra Caves in FOnline2 with my friends, preparing the right amount/type of gear for maximum cost-benefit, getting the right team (lockpickers/trappers are mandatory), going in and fighting monsters, going across dark caves, scooping out loot, being immensely paranoid about other people being in the area, communicating and dealing with said people (which ranged towards anything from friendship and alliance and common agreement of peace, to paranoia shooting, warning fights annd out-right hostility), conservating ammo, carrying all the loot possible, getting lost in the caves (and trying to find another friend there), trying to heal your crippled limbs and avoid traps when you lose the guys in your team who can do that, etc.