FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix
Game improvements => Suggestions => Topic started by: RazorRamon on September 19, 2014, 01:03:46 PM
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There should be a penalty or restriction for sneaking with weapons that arent intended for it.
As it is right now you can just grab a leather jacket, stealth boy and a Milkor and bomb the enemy mob in ZC for massive score (i know because i've done it). Or run around as a 3-4 person sneak deathsquad that all uses sniper rifles/laser rifles, calls one target and everyone shoots the same person out of stealth. That person has zero chance of survival and cant see or react in any way.
Sneaking with a knife or silenced pistol/smg in your hand? Sure, makes sense. Sneaking with a bulky automatic grenade launcher or a rifle with a one meter barrel in your hand? That shouldn't be a thing
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Maybe sneak penalty depending on the weapon weight?
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I was thinking more by weapon type and size, you cant really see weight in reality. For example, a power fist weighs 3175g and a laser rifle 4000g but one is several times longer and bulkier than the other.
Big weapons > Two handed small guns/energy weapons > one handed small guns/energy weapons > hth weapons > sneak skill weapons
...is how i imagine it should be to sneak with from hardest to easiest.
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Sneak is OP here in my opinion....wiht pe9 I can't see a sneak until hes very very close. With high PE you should be able to see them fairly easily, especially in open ground. And it's annoying to be shooting at one and have them disappear one theyve ran a few hexes. IMO sneak should be disabled for 30 seconds at least if sneaker is hit
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TLA tackles this nicely for their evasion/sneak skill
In TLA, your effective evasion skill is based on the volume of the equipement you have equiped. Therefore, you can't use evasion properly if you carry a minigun, or if you are running about in metal armor. The same can be applied to AOP.
Alternatively, the effective sneak skill in TLA is based on the equipement both equiped and carried in the inventory.
Though, looking at the AOP playstyle, I think basing it on the equiped weapon volume would be the best solution.
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Sneak is OP here in my opinion....wiht pe9 I can't see a sneak until hes very very close. With high PE you should be able to see them fairly easily, especially in open ground. And it's annoying to be shooting at one and have them disappear one theyve ran a few hexes. IMO sneak should be disabled for 30 seconds at least if sneaker is hit
Sneak detection range is actually pretty big considering the range of actual sneak weapons
This is frontal detection range (24 hexes) at 10 perception vs a 200% sneak target with a leather jacket:
(http://i.imgur.com/suCqL7u.png)
This range would be fine if the sneakers could only use the respective weapons which are either super low damage (silenced smgs and needler) or strong but require you to be in melee range (wakizashi, machete)
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22 hex would be fine. I must be lagging all the time or something, it's more like 10 hex for me. Couple days ago I was shooting at a sneak who was running from me, he just vanished around 10-15 hex
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Are you Ramon of top assassin fame?
I agree with your point of view, for a short term fix, we can easily tweak sneak variables to prevent abusable builds such as the sniper rape trains.
But personally, I don't like AoP's current sneak system and in the long run, if it were up to me, it would be changed to something less clearcut where @ X hexes you are invisible.
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I think in fallout tactics it was related to how many hexes but there was some function where it would determine how many seconds you had to be looking at the guy before he became visible. So for low PE or really far away youd have to look at them longer for them to appear. You could also make it so more than 1 person looking at the guy makes him visible faster or things like that.
I don't want sneak to be useless but when you are shooting at somone whos running from you in a straight line and they just vanish before theyre even half-way out of effective range, it feels less like sneak and more like a wizard spell
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You could add something like anti-sneak device or a perk.
It would also be chargeable and once its on you see sneakers. Like some set of infrared spectacles.
Or a perk which makes sneakers visible constantly after they de-sneak until they hide totally from you (inside building etc) or you spot sneakers on greater distances and detect them better from sides/behind.
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Are you Ramon of top assassin fame?
I agree with your point of view, for a short term fix, we can easily tweak sneak variables to prevent abusable builds such as the sniper rape trains.
But personally, I don't like AoP's current sneak system and in the long run, if it were up to me, it would be changed to something less clearcut where @ X hexes you are invisible.
I am, but you should know this from the mumble :)
I dont mind the current system but it could definitely stand some improvements. Due to the hexagonal setup of fallout in general the sneak detection is quite jittery, its very hard to keep track of a sneaker when your character always changes facings while running. On the other side, as the sneaker, its also quite difficult to approach someone from behind because the direction they'll be facing while running is quite unpredictable.
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I don't want sneak to be useless but when you are shooting at somone whos running from you in a straight line and they just vanish before theyre even half-way out of effective range, it feels less like sneak and more like a wizard spell
That shouldn't be possible though. You can't activate the stealth boy while you're standing in an enemy players field of vision.
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Sneak too stronk, nerf it! :P
It really is though, its hard to get more than a single shot off at a sneaker as, if you do manage to spot his ass he has run 6 hexes before you raise your gun for the second (or even first half the time) shot, putting him in invisible range, breaking the shot and giving him the gap to escape or reposition easily. If they go into stealth i either chase them until i can get a real shot (say, into an open field while i am a couple of steps behind, so never, lol), which in most cases gets me slapped for a casual 250 melee damage each hit 2 times in a row within a split second, or just let them go.
I have a perception of 9 and hawkeye btw.
I liked the idea of not being able to re-stealth after being shot for a period, but what if it where you are unable to re-enter stealth after being spotted, until you had moved out of all enemies sight radius again?
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It all looks wrong to me.
I think a detected (seen!)sneaker should be kicked out of the sneak mode and he shouldn't be able to hide while in the FOV of enemies (unless one is a D&D Shadowdancer with the Hide in Plane Sight feat). And at the same time a sneaker should be able to sneak up on somebody from behind(!) and kill 8 times out of 10 (with a 100ap attack, that works only in sneak mode).
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I don't want sneak to be useless but when you are shooting at somone whos running from you in a straight line and they just vanish before theyre even half-way out of effective range, it feels less like sneak and more like a wizard spell
That shouldn't be possible though. You can't activate the stealth boy while you're standing in an enemy players field of vision.
Tell that to the guys doing it constantly lol, hell they do it within my rifles range.
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This isn't sneak, it requires usage of stealthboy, so yes by "Lore" you are invisible.
They aren't resneaking, they were never de-sneaked and are they really disappearing faster than you can get a unaimed shot off (400ms)? Has anyone tried hex-firing the general direction after spotting sneaker? The cone is huge on the shotgun / LMG I can't imagine in all situations the sneaker runs into cover that quickly.
I understand the current favoured meta is dual wielding snipers and only use aimed shots but the game has plenty of mechanics for dealing with most situations. (legitimate sneakers that try to get close to you. Not those that are sniping you from offscreen and resneaking)
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I think if you hit a sneak, they should be desneaked and remain so until they resneak outside of anyone's fov.
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I think if you hit a sneak, they should be desneaked and remain so until they resneak outside of anyone's fov.
That is the current mechanic
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then it must be broken, or I guess maybe lag is messing it up. I am 100% sure I have been in situation where I hit a sneak who is running away from me, then before I can take 2nd shot he vanishes, all without leaving my effective range or fov
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then it must be broken, or I guess maybe lag is messing it up. I am 100% sure I have been in situation where I hit a sneak who is running away from me, then before I can take 2nd shot he vanishes, all without leaving my effective range or fov
Was there cars or anything to hide behind around? This is how i usually try to get away if i get shot while stealthed. Run away from the enemy in a straight line and then resneak behind the first obstacle that comes up.
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no it was really just vanishing into thin air. Running in a straight line, no objects near, and -bam- gone. Didnt go behind anything, just vanished right there as he was running into thin air. Like a goddamn woodlands pixie. I think I may have been lagging, and the sneak was further away or something? that's the only explanation I can think of
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You guys should know, Sneak is already nerfed to hell as it is. I don't see how anyone can complain about it (Unless you have 2 perception).
Keep in mind, When i come up behind you to kill you, I've been stalking you for 5 minutes, Trying to wait until the correct moment where your friend and you are split up just enough distance for me to be able to kill you without him having time to react. Trying to stay behind you the whole time, And hoping that you dont look around your surroundings instead of having tunnel vision on that loot
Also, You cannot resneak inside someones field of vision, You lose sight range while stealthed, If you get shot once you unstealth and you receive a 5 second debuff when you unstealth.
I see you guys suggesting things that are already game mechanics.
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I think some realism is the best solution here
Alongside Ramon's ideas, one possible idea is to give a nod to realism - Namely, how people in Real-Life do the "sneak sniper" thing? Simple, they get a sniper rifle with a supressor and sub-sonic bullets and do accurate targeted shots. So you get a nerfed weapon that doesn't make you entirely invisible when shooting (it just makes it harder to detect, so you can't stand near someone and sneak-shoot a supressed rifle). So if you want to attack while invisible, get a silenced pistol, a supressed sniper rifle with subsonic (therefore, weaker) bullets and stay away.
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Yeah that is my opinion now I think, if a few new sneak category weapons were added, specifically a reduced damage sneak sniper rifle, this might be avoidable, but even if not;
Categorising the weapons themselves might work out for the best (much like how armors effect sneak), light weapons could be carried in hand for no sneak minus (this could include light weapons that bring you out of stealth when fired too), medium weapons which inflict a malus to sneak when wielded in hand, and heavy weapons, which make sneak impossible when wielded in hands, and which break sneak when equipped.
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I like the idea about speacial perk to see sneaked players better
It is very specific and very usefull in team fights
Also I have an idea
Make an expensive item (like 1000 cups) which looks like a shiny lamp (Can be called detector)
You can throw (place) it on the ground and if there are anybody sneaking around it within 50 gex, lamp going to turn red (like an alarm)
If someone sneaking within range of 10 gex around it, he will be shown (sneak doesn't work)
Can be placed in buldings, near doors etc
Any explosion near this device will destroy it
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTzMS0Tj5jM0P6fMhF-apesQ1qGPhuaR03XKc9zWpV3X-sAcNO)
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I like the idea about speacial perk to see sneaked players better
It is very specific and very usefull in team fights
Also I have an idea
Make an expensive item (like 1000 cups) which looks like a shiny lamp (Can be called detector)
You can throw (place) it on the ground and if there are anybody sneaking around it within 50 gex, lamp going to turn red (like an alarm)
If someone sneaking within range of 10 gex around it, he will be shown (sneak doesn't work)
Can be placed in buldings, near doors etc
Any explosion near this device will destroy it
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTzMS0Tj5jM0P6fMhF-apesQ1qGPhuaR03XKc9zWpV3X-sAcNO)
Coolest idea ever
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ye sneek is allready nerfed as hell
like i sead zilion times just pick Watchtower perk and you will rape sneekers
If you dont have Watchtower its your wrong
Or go ask dev to remove sneek and give you super 1000000dmg plazma rifles thet cost 1 ap so you can be happy
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Well, I've recently seen sneaker in combat armor with bazooka. We (around 5 players) made a line in a window, so anyone who appears in our fov would get insta killed. And what did happen? Sneaker in CA and bazooka shot at as, and just ran away. We had no chance of shootng him.
Here's list of nerfs that sneakers should get:
- You can't sneak with metal armor or better. (Sneaking in MA, CA? Seriously?)
- You get small penalty for leather armor
- You can't sneak if you have non-sneak weapon in your inventory. (weapons that are considered "sneak weapons" would be: pistols, smgs, melee)
- You automaticaly desneak if you pick up items from ground/open doors or containers. (Sneaker looters are anooying little shits.)
- After desneaking you can't resneak for 10-15 seconds.
- Silent Running should be perk that you can take only by leveling, not some silly quest. This way you actualy have to make sacrifices in your abilities to play a sneaker.
Sneakers should be low-range glass cannons and/or just scouts. Right now they are normal fighting builds with invisibility mode...
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Well, I've recently seen sneaker in combat armor with bazooka. We (around 5 players) made a line in a window, so anyone who appears in our fov would get insta killed. And what did happen? Sneaker in CA and bazooka shot at as, and just ran away. We had no chance of shootng him.
Here's list of nerfs that sneakers should get:
- You can't sneak with metal armor or better. (Sneaking in MA, CA? Seriously?)
- You get small penalty for leather armor
- You can't sneak if you have non-sneak weapon in your inventory. (weapons that are considered "sneak weapons" would be: pistols, smgs, melee)
- You automaticaly desneak if you pick up items from ground/open doors or containers. (Sneaker looters are anooying little shits.)
- After desneaking you can't resneak for 10-15 seconds.
- Silent Running should be perk that you can take only by leveling, not some silly quest. This way you actualy have to make sacrifices in your abilities to play a sneaker.
Sneakers should be low-range glass cannons and/or just scouts. Right now they are normal fighting builds with invisibility mode...
First of all you're pissed cause there is a tactic to avoid insta kill by your ambush obviously....which already makes sneakers something good, viable character for specific tactic/task. You limited your own fov by ambushing by the windows and you're mad cause sneaker got away...
And 200 skill points isn't a sacrifice ? You get -25% on sneak when in MA/CA, if you had high PE/watchtower and were in any situation where your fov isn't limited by the window you would have killed him.
Once again, everyone who makes total tank/offensive builds wants to be able to own anything. I'm starting to like sneakers more and more.
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I'm amused by "sneakers basically have no downsides, coz you don't have to invest in it and be invisible like Reptile".
Yeah sure, if it was THAT easy, you would have used it too. Look at your build carefully and see WHY exactly you can't go like that? Because those players gave something up in order to have a stealth-character, they've thrown away those stats YOU have.
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To be honest all that crying bout sneakers is forced by weak players with ~5/6 PE who don't even know that they can turn they character around (BTW I'm not a sneaker). It's so sad when I see that bastards sneaking around, tracking their victims and get killed because of bypasses. Ranged sneakers are real problem, but we can find a solution.
My proposition:
1. Leave sneak as it is with clothes and perception penalty.
2. Remove bypasses after desneaking.
3. Make it possible to get into sneak only with full HP, not crippled, blinded or under any negative effects and out of sight range of any enemy creature/player.
4. If you want to use weapon without silent attack you are desneaked as it is now, but you feeling dizzy for 3 seconds, something like your head is spinning, because stealthboy is only a device disrupting your image, and you have penalty for your accuracy. For example if you are 1-10 hexes from your target everything is ok, 10-15 hexes you have -10% chance to hit your target, 15-20 hexes -20% and if you are more than 20 hexes from your target you get -70% chances.
I think it could works. Don't ruin this skill. I know that now almost everyone have sneak, but if ideas I read about on forum here and on other topics will be introduced with incoming updates this skill will be dead. Make it usefull, make it tactical, make it easy to learn and hard to master, but please, don't kill it.
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You are the one suggesting to kill it.. Via removing bypass after being hit. Sneakers are glass cannons and they should stay this way.
There is no point in adding anything from your 3). If a sneaker is seen, he must be dead anyway, no second chances. And you already can't enter sneak if an enemy sees you (actually the easiest way to know if you are being watched by an another sneaker).
Your 4th point won't fix anything, since dsr snipers will still knock you out on the first shot. What's the point of them feeling dizzy.
Adding those penalties won't solve anything either, since you can just desneak beforehand and shoot right after with no penalties.
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This penaltys should work especially with this first shot. Or just cut effective range of everything to max 15-20 hexes while sneak.
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This penaltys should work especially with this first shot. Or just cut effective range of everything to max 15-20 hexes while sneak.
Which first shot... You stand with a dsr, looking on the street, you see some1. You MANUALLY de-sneak and shoot the target w\o any penalties.
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First of all you're pissed cause there is a tactic to avoid insta kill by your ambush obviously....which already makes sneakers something good, viable character for specific tactic/task. You limited your own fov by ambushing by the windows and you're mad cause sneaker got away...
Did you even read my post, or you just randomly respond "no, sneakers are good!" to every criticizm?
Sneaker with RL and CA is NOT a good thing.
If you think that having 200 sneak is a sacrifice, then we have nothing to talk about...
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Currently sneaking with a rocket launcher and CA will reduce stealth ability by 50%, 75% if running, making even someone with 200 sneak pretty terrible, i think the plan is to make the penalty even more for super heavy weapons like the rocket launcher.
Then again this is an old topic, which has been dealt with somewhat, so I don't really see the need to comment on it further in the first place.