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Author Topic: Sneak  (Read 37681 times)

Nunn

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2014, 10:00:17 AM »

I like the idea of stealth characters as scouts and intel gatherers so nerfs in there ability to achieve these goals would be a negative for the development of Tactics in ZC and other situations.
Nerfing their offensive capabilities is alright though.
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SaNeR

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2014, 11:50:43 AM »

I think, Sneak only alvaible on Leather jacket, Combat leather jacket, Combat Leather coat.
Big gun = no sneak mode.
Rifle = malus
Pistol and smg = OK

2nd, The bonus sneak by wall is fucked, sneak are INVISIBLE on little room!!!

And need nerf Wakizashi, 300+ dmg per shot is just inacceptable.

A Phoenix citizen

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2014, 12:59:29 PM »

1-Just like in other servers, sneaked players should not be calculated for TC.

2-Sneaks should be forced to wear nothing but bluesuits or robes.

3-Prevent silent running when armed with ranged weapons, forcing combat sneaks to walk if they want to sneak while actively carrying a ranged weapon.

4-Remove the instant sneak after attacking, just like in other servers, unsneaked player should need to sneak out of ennemy FOV.

Sneak REALLY NEED to be nerfed, as it destroy the gaming experience of other players.
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Deathproof

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2014, 02:09:49 PM »

1-Just like in other servers, sneaked players should not be calculated for TC.

2-Sneaks should be forced to wear nothing but bluesuits or robes.

3-Prevent silent running when armed with ranged weapons, forcing combat sneaks to walk if they want to sneak while actively carrying a ranged weapon.

4-Remove the instant sneak after attacking, just like in other servers, unsneaked player should need to sneak out of ennemy FOV.

Sneak REALLY NEED to be nerfed, as it destroy the gaming experience of other players.

I would rather see some anti sneak device or for example seeing sneakers if sneaked, then totally ruin a skill in game. You do have to sacrifice points to get to it you know ?

Some of the good ideas is to limit it only to leather family of armors, and not being able to deploy a BG while sneaked. And removing the wall bonus I guess.

Generally, people like to max out their char as offensive one without "wasting" perks/skills/traits on defensive capabilities.

I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.
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A Phoenix citizen

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2014, 04:45:40 PM »

Quote
I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.

As someone who played sneaks on all fonline servers (I got thousands of kills as a sneak), I would say this... remove the sneak skill from the game, or make it so that sneaks are only scouts and not assassins, combat sneak is pure trolling! This is my opinion as a sneaker.
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Deathproof

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2014, 01:36:51 AM »

Quote
I bet most of the people who want drastically nerf sneak are the ones who never tried sneak char but just got killed by one so they don't know it takes patience and practice to be a good sneaker killer.

As someone who played sneaks on all fonline servers (I got thousands of kills as a sneak), I would say this... remove the sneak skill from the game, or make it so that sneaks are only scouts and not assassins, combat sneak is pure trolling! This is my opinion as a sneaker.

Are we trying to create counter strike on fonline engine in the end ? Thousands of kills ! (Did you now?)
Removing a skill is stupid, finding a good solution so its not OP but not useless is what we're aiming for here man. Otherwise we'll all have same characters soon. Combat sneak is hardly pure trolling, heavy snipers and melee damage are pure trolling.
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cirn0

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2014, 03:05:17 AM »

After closely examining sneak and playing as one, noticed two bugs regarding sneak that actually buffed them.

Bug:
-Getting hit by hex fire does not cause de-sneak.

And also

-First shot on sneaker does not inherit the bypass penalty.

Just a reminder that when sneaked characters are hit, they automatically get their armor bypassed (probably +30~40% more damage).
So random hex fire burst into the streets might 1~2 shot a sneaker. (about 200+ from a PKS burst on sneaker).

I've fixed this for next patch and this will feel like a huge nerf to sneakers but this was just a bug fix.

I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.

Planned ZC revamps will result in removal of sneak/single man caps as well.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 03:07:57 AM by cirn0 »
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Simms

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2014, 03:08:20 AM »

cirn0, you mean characters in Sneak won't count to the capping group? This might be interesting.
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mojuk

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2014, 03:23:13 AM »

I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...
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cirn0

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2014, 03:32:39 AM »

I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...

Well, seeing as how being sneaked you still can achieve max view range of 100. You have to deal with these weapons.

DSR 91 ER
PKS 56 ER
DKS 75 ER
Minigun 58 ER

And If we want to make it counter-able by hex firing on a street with no cover we have to nerf down sneak BG/Snipers sight range to just about PKS range.

Personally, I still am unable to come to a conclusion on sneak balance. I've seen the sneak strategy lose and win about evenly, one could say it takes less effort to camp sneaked but that's how I feel about sniper balls and rape trains as well.

I would like Simms opinion on the matter as I believe it is his platoon that is mainly using this strategy.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 03:52:59 AM by cirn0 »
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PusiteGA

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2014, 05:04:30 AM »

i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing

Simms

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2014, 06:09:36 AM »

I'll put the sneak nerf on hold for now and see how it plays out with these bug fixes.
I saw my fortune teller and she said: "This will change nothing! Buahahaha!".
Maybe because those fixed bugs are not even close to problems listed in 3 previous pages...

Well, seeing as how being sneaked you still can achieve max view range of 100. You have to deal with these weapons.

DSR 91 ER
PKS 56 ER
DKS 75 ER
Minigun 58 ER

And If we want to make it counter-able by hex firing on a street with no cover we have to nerf down sneak BG/Snipers sight range to just about PKS range.

Personally, I still am unable to come to a conclusion on sneak balance. I've seen the sneak strategy lose and win about evenly, one could say it takes less effort to camp sneaked but that's how I feel about sniper balls and rape trains as well.

I would like Simms opinion on the matter as I believe it is his platoon that is mainly using this strategy.

Sneak strategy is now strong, borderline OP against small to medium-sized groups (up to 8-12 including enemy sneakers). You can pick enemies off 1 by 1 from 'round the corners while being undetected by the rest of the group, maneuver freely across the map and not get cornered or suppressed to the point you can't change your position.

On the other hand, you cannot actually apply this kind of strategy to the large prime-time teamfights as it is. If you have a 20+ battlegroup and a couple of sneakers on your own, you can counter it pretty easily by
a) keeping your group tight
b) having long open ranges covered by at least 2-3 people with DSRs so it's too risky for sneaks to open up on them
c) screening your group with your own sneakers to prevent the enemy from getting closer
d) if you fight in the open, basically having more DSRs than the enemy helps a lot -- you can lose one in a sneaker attack but it'll be a suicide move for them. It applies to all sorts of rangefights, stealthed or non-stealthed alike.

Moreover, with the current defib mechanics it's not much of a problem to avoid irreplaceable casualties from long-range sneakers. If one of the group gets taken down by a sneaker salvo, you have plenty of time to revive him while sneakers change the position and restore APs.

So, basically, all-sneak and mixed (like 50%/50%) groups have slight advantage in maneuvering, but lack firepower and defence both to hold their ground and to force the enemy from their positions. When the location gets saturated by enemies, it becomes really hard to choose the terms of the fight as the zones are not really too big considering the 60-100 hex ranges the firefights occur at.

Why use combat sneak at all? It's good when you're outnumbered 2:1 (or even more) and you intend to inflict as many as possible casualties while taking as little as possible on your own. You cannot really prevent the enemy from capping the zone eventually (even if you get higher score, the zone will be recapped right after), nor can you cap and hold the zone on yourself, but you still decide when and where to initiate and to stop the fight.

Talking about proposed changes -- this:
Effective range nerf while using sneak+amplifying the damage recieved by the sneaker after desneaking, to add a high risk factor. Along with a anal train nerf
Plus, at the moment we've got a very DSR-heavy meta, "light fifties" being the weapons that grant 90% of kills every teamfight, both for sneakers and non-sneakers. Along with machineguns (up close) and wakizashis (ever closer), it's the guaranteed way to get a quick kill -- and the only one that works at all ranges and outranges every other weapon. In most other ways, there are still chances for the enemy to NOT die after a single salvo.
Changing the availability of these guns and ammo will do both things -- eliminate the DSR+sneak combo from mass usage and prevent reducing teamfights to 90-hex range wanking. To be honest, this was discussed by us on the first week of the game as .50 ammo and guns became widely available  -- you can buy several hundreds each day and they get stacked by thousands in the end.
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PusiteGA

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2014, 06:34:41 AM »

i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing

This perk is an counter for long range sneekers and if you dont pick it, it is your foult you get raped by sneekrs 50bmg

And if you really nerf bg sneek you shoud remove this perk cuz whats point of it then

baskila

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2014, 06:43:20 AM »

As A Phoenix citizen said the role of a sneak should be reconnaissance and intel gathering, not what it is now.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 06:45:08 AM by baskila »
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Hans Landa

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2014, 09:49:59 AM »

I would suggest starting with fixing the sneak bugs that cirn0 mentioned and  lowering the .50 bmg availability. If sneak is still an issue after that, some effective range penalties can be applied. There is no point to lower the sight range of sneakers even more, since we lose the main purpose of sneakers-scouting.
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RazorRamon

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2014, 10:53:52 AM »

i found picking watchtower perk wery good thing

This perk is an counter for long range sneekers and if you dont pick it, it is your foult you get raped by sneekrs 50bmg

And if you really nerf bg sneek you shoud remove this perk cuz whats point of it then

You should try reading what the perk says
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Nunn

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2014, 10:58:52 AM »

Maintain the sight range, limit the range types of the usable weapons.
If a sneaker wants to run around with melee, pistols or SMGs then that's fine.
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Duke

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2014, 06:21:40 AM »


If sneakers need a nerf, then why on the server so little sneakers? Really a lot of whining.
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Nunn

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2014, 06:44:36 AM »

Every second player i see out atm is a sneaker :P they have become very popular.
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Niamak

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Re: Sneak
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2014, 06:47:58 AM »


then why on the server so little sneakers?

I think this is just a problem in BB, other faction always have at least 2-3+ sneakers. You can notice this just by watching some videos. Except family because toilet control no need sneakers.  :P
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