FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

Game improvements => Developer Corner => Topic started by: cirn0 on October 01, 2014, 12:01:06 PM

Title: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 01, 2014, 12:01:06 PM
Its shit right?
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: blasma khan on October 01, 2014, 12:03:07 PM
yes

also festering spears
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on October 01, 2014, 12:03:20 PM
Its shit right?
Totally unexpected words from a dev ;D.

Rifles are not awesome just because there are shotguns and sniper rifles.
If shotgun's effective range will get a realistic nerf and every scoped weapon will have an efficient range of Minimum (i.e. if a target is too close to you, you are less likely to hit it), then ARs will get a 2nd breath.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: nanoswimz on October 01, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
There is should be aimed burst to make them good weapon. With highner -aim penalty.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 01, 2014, 12:11:49 PM
There is should be aimed burst to make them good weapon. With highner -aim penalty.
That is reserved for the G11 family of weapons
 
Its shit right?
every scoped weapon will have an efficient range of Minimum (i.e. if a target is too close to you, you are less likely to hit it), then ARs will get a 2nd breath.

Oh that's an idea but I'm sure more than half the server will flip shit.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: RazorRamon on October 01, 2014, 12:20:13 PM

Its shit right?
every scoped weapon will have an efficient range of Minimum (i.e. if a target is too close to you, you are less likely to hit it), then ARs will get a 2nd breath.

Oh that's an idea but I'm sure more than half the server will flip shit.

DO IT

Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on October 01, 2014, 12:20:38 PM
Off-Topic
Well half of server playing snipers is also not that great, ain't it? :)
Or make it the less logical, but more balanced way around!
If the target is <20-30 hexes away from you, you get an AC penalty. Harsh example would be a +2 AC for each hex <20-30.
(That way we deal with randomness of "40% hit chance, aw well, I missed, what a surprise"... besides, I doubt that sniper rifles were meant to perform scoped-aim-shots on a RUNNING target with less than 20 meters distance between you.)
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 01, 2014, 12:25:55 PM
Lets try to stay on topic,
Sniper nerfs are not going to be as easy going as assault rifle buffs.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: 3.14 on October 01, 2014, 12:42:08 PM
They have more range and damage then pistols, they use less AP then sniper heavy weapons, they have good anti-armor ammo.

This is the best balanced gun group out there, change the other guns (starting smg++ and sniper--)!
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Deathproof on October 01, 2014, 12:47:41 PM
Not all, good portion of them yeah.....

For example AK 47 which is tier 1 is better than AK 112 which is tier 2....funny. Also its excellent cheap replacement for a decent handgun. Some need buff, in general they aren't that bad. More damage from burst would do them healthy buff.

Fore example m14 is great, decent damage but great perks/trait.

About sniper not hitting a target that is close. So I got scope for long range targets, and if something like AK can hit close distance target, than snipers can do it too. Huge AP cost and if enemy gets close to you (as in, his gun's range) you're fucked anyway, no need to nerf them.

Currently SMG's need love and attention more than anything else.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on October 01, 2014, 12:54:39 PM
About sniper not hitting a target that is close. So I got scope for long range targets, and if something like AK can hit close distance target, than snipers can do it too. Huge AP cost and if enemy gets close to you (as in, his gun's range) you're fucked anyway, no need to nerf them.
Switching weapon still takes time, besides it's more of a cosmetic chance, rather than an actual balance one. (At least snipers will be forced to carry additional firearms).
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Deathproof on October 01, 2014, 01:00:11 PM
I'm not getting your point. Having a sniper equipped in short range combat is a suicide. Till you shoot once guy already bursted you to death or did enough aimed shots by handgun,shotgun,rifle that you can't do much. How is it cosmetic change if you have to switch guns, which means standing in one place to do it. Also, most of the sniper players carry an additional close range weapon, otherwise its suicide when enemy gets closer like I mentioned above. But its good to be optional. If I hit guy twice from huge distance, and he is left with cca 20 HP, hitting him once more as he is charging at me without switching weapon is....acceptable and normal....
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Ranger Arn on October 01, 2014, 01:42:46 PM
maybe allow % chance for critical hits in bursts for each bullet  (but with capted crit str/level - not as good as aimed crits )?

or even better add this as a trait to chosen  weapons - assault rifles.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Hans Landa on October 01, 2014, 02:03:29 PM
-A fire mode for 2-3 bullet AIMED bursts that can crit with each bullet.
-Attachments: m203/gp-25 grenade launchers, hex-only fire.
-Attachments: scopes for 1x-2x trait.
-Attachments: silencers for sneak attacks.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 01, 2014, 03:25:52 PM
Aimed bursts on some of the AR families outside of G11 might make them more appealing, it certainly makes G11s sound appealing at least. Maybe just restricting aimed bursts to head, arms, legs or chest for choices (or even just legs, chest, head).

Other than that they could use a tiny damage buff, they do tend be quite low damage outside of crits, but as was mentioned if you are going to buff ARs in damage SMGs definitely need some love to go with that (maybe more precise aimed shot bursts, or more general damage for their lack of range).
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: VVish on October 01, 2014, 07:38:58 PM
Having a sniper equipped in short range combat is a suicide.
O' rly? I do it often and you know what? Snipers in short combat is definitely a thing you should avoid or to play wisely, since you can get knockouted\damaged to death in no time. It takes some reaction, nuts and skill, but it's more effective than playing "A"-click monkey in line.

Since this topic is about assault rifles, i'd suggest to make them at least viable to use in at least mid-range combat. Small guns has huge number of t2 weaponry currently not used at all at battlefield, that'd be not bad to change.

In order to fix assault rifles, look toward modifying it's base damage during burst shots, some ammo also need to be reconsidered or even AP analog added to be able to shoot not only pyjamas.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Nunn on October 01, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
I personally think assault rifles are fine as is, the problem is that the area that they are meant to succeed at is too overlapped with guns that are superior, snipers especially.
Could always go with what someone talked about above and how they do it in wastland 2, reduced accuracy of close range weapons at range and reduced accuracy of long range weapons at shorter distances.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on October 02, 2014, 01:01:03 AM
Off-topic
Wasteland has that mechanic?  Wow, I've finished that game with a solo-HtH brawler, didn't even know that.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 02, 2014, 05:35:38 AM
Just tried out the Enfield SA80 in several different situations and found it to be complete garbage in all of them, this is a relatively high tier (in the crafting unlocking) assault rifle that just made me sad.

The exact moment that I realised it was garbage was when i hex fired a stealther at near point blank range, while she was in stealth (and a leather jacket no less) and dealt 42 damage.

Though the aimed headshots that dealt between 11 and 40 depending on how lucky I got were also a little concerning.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Smalltime on October 02, 2014, 07:42:26 AM
Just tried out the Enfield SA80
This is all you had to say
The gun's only worth is as a crafting material for LSWs, which are "okay."
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mojuk on October 02, 2014, 07:47:26 AM
From what I saw only good (enough) bursting weapons are
SG: BAR,
BG: PKS, AVENGER.
Nothing more, all SMGs, Assaults are shit.
Keep in mind that leader's DR buff is fucking up most of bursting weapons.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Hail on October 02, 2014, 08:13:54 AM
I use AKs-74 for aim shots spam, it have nice perks and very cheap.
Good for breaking limbs, but bad for damage - need better ammo.
However, Desert Eagle .50AE is alot better for this, with 2/1 Damage Modifier.

I think Assault Rifles is weapon for supports, which dont have perception for sniping, strength for big guns, endurance for tanking and so on. My suggestion - give something unique for assault rifles to extend its supporting role. No need to add damage, add some debuff for target, like AP drain or more vulnerability for shots from snipers or some fire DoT. May be here it will have its niche.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 02, 2014, 08:46:31 AM
From what I saw only good (enough) bursting weapons are
SG: BAR,
BG: PKS, AVENGER.
Nothing more, all SMGs, Assaults are shit.
Keep in mind that leader's DR buff is fucking up most of bursting weapons.

What he said >.<
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Simms on October 02, 2014, 09:18:41 AM
Keep in mind that leader's DR buff is fucking up most of bursting weapons.
Except that it's fucked up in its own twisted way and, as it seems, ain't fixed yet. Some folks are still getting a -20% DR bug whenever they die, or their SL dies, or for some other totally unknown reason. And sugarmaning the SL every time this happens just freaks the hell outta me.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mojuk on October 02, 2014, 09:35:41 AM
But when it's working it's working and it's working good, too good imo.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on October 02, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
Keep in mind that leader's DR buff is fucking up most of bursting weapons.
Keep in mind that not everybody has these leader buffs
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 03, 2014, 03:21:09 AM
Is it because of the friendly fire potential that assault-rifles are not favored or is that just extra on top of the NO DAMAGE problem?
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Perteks on October 03, 2014, 03:55:58 AM
More likely no reliable dmg, because of low magazine or just dmg being very low
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 03, 2014, 04:09:22 AM
The low damage is kind of expected with the insanely low AP cost of bursting some of the assault rifles, but as someone mentioned the clip capacity and the size of bursts renders these low cost bursts useless as almost as much time is spent reloading as firing.

Shorter bursts with a slight damage buff might counter this, but you would need to bump up the AP cost a bit.

With some weapons a shorter burst makes sense, but on some weapons, like the Tommy gun or BAR the big bursts fit the theme nicely and also work, would they also be classified as assault rifles though? BAR is more of an LMG and the Tommy gun is almost an SMG, so I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mojuk on October 03, 2014, 04:13:44 AM
Friendly fire is not an issue here. It's the fact that other weapons provide more dps and utility than assault rifles in every aspect: spamming, aim shots, burst. The tricky part here is that people, who know what they are doing, will never compromise for something good, they will always pick the best. So no matter how many guys you will have available it will always come down to 2-3 best dps+range sniper rifles, 1-2 best crippler rifles, 2-3 best spamming guns, 2-3 best dps+support burst wepons and milkor/rocket launcher.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 03, 2014, 04:21:49 AM
I can agree with that sentiment too, and this is why I like the similarities in the damage of weapons across the board, attempting to give them all viability in different ways, but as you said people will choose favorites (or "the most OP") as they possibly can, and generally this is only proven through repeated use of tactics or weapons.

It has clearly been proven (by lack of usage) that ARs fail to fill any of the needed categories of PvP currently, or are easily made obsolete by other weapons, mainly LMGs and sniper rifles.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Perteks on October 03, 2014, 06:24:24 AM
Low bullet bursts are kinda damn not effective time what take you to burst those few times to deal any real damage is way to long to be effective. I found that even when i had options to burst with ak i way more prefered to spam singlies or aim what is kinda ironic single spam>burst spam
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: MARXMAN on October 03, 2014, 02:02:46 PM
The only thing I think assault rifle are missing is burst accuracy.  They might not put out as many rounds as an LMG or SMG when they full auto or burst, but dammit if they're not going to be more accurate.  I can't say what else ARs are going to need to be balanced (SMGS too)  but having ARs have more accurate bursts ( AND SMALLER, JESUS WHO SHOOTS 10 ROUNDS AT ONCE?) would make them a much more viable weapon for ZC and the like.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: dillinger on October 03, 2014, 02:51:31 PM
almost all burst weapon bad >:(
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Poor Ernie on October 05, 2014, 01:13:13 AM
Yes, they are shit. Rifles do single shots better and shotguns do close range better. I agree with the 2-3 shot aim-able bursts.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: ZwierQ on October 05, 2014, 06:28:25 PM
It will be kinda cool and realistic if they will have attached one shot grenade launcher/pump shotgun. That will give them some tactical and supportive role on the playground with some smokes and frag nades.
BTW: http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=1842.msg13445#msg13445 this topic seems to be made for assualt rifles improvement.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: MARXMAN on October 05, 2014, 07:48:53 PM

BTW: http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=1842.msg13445#msg13445 this topic seems to be made for assualt rifles improvement.


Seeing as ARs are the most modular of all weapons, I can see that.Can't wait for word on that suggestion seeing the current state of ARs.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 06, 2014, 02:27:22 AM
Well they just got a flat damage buff (5 damage per bullet I believe), so some ARs may be quite decent again, especially on burst, I can think of a couple that I want to try again at least.

Might go testing on assignments before PvP though.

Edit;

Tested damage with M14, Steyr and G3A3 for a bit, the damage buff was definitely noticeable, especially when burst firing into large mobs, but I still think this role is better done by LMGs in almost all ways, aside from the generally slightly higher AP cost.

I don't really know, but perhaps giving ARs burst more range with much tighter spread, or the ability to do short targeted bursts on single targets might set them aside from LMGs, which generally outclass them when it comes to burst or full auto fire.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Perteks on October 06, 2014, 09:53:19 AM
Idea:
What about possibility to make trishot but only with first bullet aimable and damage of burst? Not sure if engine allow it.
Damage would be little bigger than standard burst and you still have chance to score additional effects but still single aim would be better in term of max damage because its have other damage range. And cost of this +20ap ofc

And g11 still will have full aimed bursts what will be outstanding
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: BG Sexpert on October 07, 2014, 12:43:47 PM
The DR from leadership and armors make them useless as single shot weapons, they are out performed as burst weapons.

To make assault rifles better, you need to make them better vs DR somehow.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 09, 2014, 05:15:52 PM
So friendly fire is not an issue? Its just simply the lack of damage compared to sniper rifles ect?
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 09, 2014, 06:33:01 PM
Well the removal of friendly fire from AR bursts would certainly make ARs useful, if not OP.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on October 09, 2014, 07:41:26 PM
almost all burst weapon bad >:(
only BG bursters are useful
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: BG Sexpert on October 15, 2014, 02:45:45 PM
The problem is with DR. Assault rifles will never be better than snipers for single aimed shot, nor better than BG for burst and this is all for good purpose. So what does Assault have? Single unaimed fast shots, but with people running around with 80% DR and 17 DT,  you are lucky to get 20 damage a shot for like 20 AP.

There are a few routes you could take to improve this. Give single shots an armor penetration modifier? If you simple buff the ammo, other guns (PKS and such) will be benefitted as well. If you give the weapon a modifier that reduces DR then the burst may become too strong (burst is still meh).

Reduce AP of assault rifle single shot significantly (without altering aimed shot). The problem now is that you barely get 1:1 damage:ap. So in 5 shots you've done 1/3 of your opponents life without any critical modifiers (knockouts/cripples) for your entire AP bar. This pretty much makes you shit in every 1v1 or team fight. Now if we can find a way to increase this ratio to 1.5:1 or 2:1 then you might have something. As it stands, the damage:cost ratio is fucked
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: The Brazilian Slaughter on October 15, 2014, 04:46:20 PM
Quote
The problem is with DR. Assault rifles will never be better than snipers for single aimed shot, nor better than BG for burst and this is all for good purpose. So what does Assault have? Single unaimed fast shots, but with people running around with 80% DR and 17 DT,  you are lucky to get 20 damage a shot for like 20 AP.

I think flat dmg bonuses should be a nice start. FN-FAL is such a underpowered rifle, for example, it fires 7,62mm x 51mm yet it doesn't seem really more powerful than your bog-standard 5,56mm x 45 rifle.

How about changing MGs and miniguns by increasing AP use AND damage and reducing their accuracy? So they're slow to fire but capable of firing immense amounts of high-powered bullets all around while a assault rifle is good at firing precise, short bursts or double-taps?
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: cirn0 on October 15, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
I'm leaning towards the problem with most weapons being their ammo.

PKS is the boss gun because of its incredible ammo mods.

Might introduce in AP variants of the other calibers that'll benefit bursting.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: mAdman on October 15, 2014, 06:44:04 PM
Yes please! :D

Possibly hollowpoint variants too (that go 2/1 damage at increased DR).

One thing I have noticed Cirn0 is the AK47 really didn't need the 5 extra damage buff, I see people walking around with these quite often now, as they are tier 1 weapons that outclass some tier 2 ARs. If AK47 is supposed to be the worst or lowest tier AR, please make it's stats reflect this.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: MARXMAN on October 15, 2014, 10:30:30 PM
I'm leaning towards the problem with most weapons being their ammo.

PKS is the boss gun because of its incredible ammo mods.

Might introduce in AP variants of the other calibers that'll benefit bursting.



Please god, this would be wonderful.  I forgo using weapons I love because of ammo modifiers, a change would be great.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: twat on January 13, 2015, 12:01:18 PM
No one can hit anything full auto with the AK47. same goes for any ammo larger than .223/5.56 coming out of a light rifle. These larger calibers should have a large spread when full auto. small calibers like the .223 should be very easy to control even when emptying the mag. If the gun is small and has a large projectile, it is often better to single fire (AK47).

Friendly fire should remain in AOP.

we will be patient and vigilant. Both the guns and ammo should be considered when balancing. I love the idea that most guns will be viable. I don't like the idea that everyone must have the same build and the same gun (fonline2)
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: paragon on January 13, 2015, 12:28:39 PM
Assault Rifles and Friendly Fire in AOP... I expect you to be unhappy soon. ):

There's a thing I don't like about shooting mechanics a lot: 95% chance to hit. Even and especially with bursts for any distance. I think that maximum chance to hit could be used for another way of weapon differentiation.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on January 13, 2015, 12:43:52 PM
Yeah I was hardly against that also, 95% hit-chance isn't a good thing.

But the stupidiest thing is that you have 95% on melee hits with no melee skill, which renders that skill practically useless. (just dump int for other stats or sp's for supportive activities and you're golden.)
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: twat on January 13, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
but the perks really give you the chance for one kit KO. The healer build with no primary stats but uses the power fist is cool and all but is it OP? I think my build is cooler.
Title: Re: Assault Rifles
Post by: Myakot on January 13, 2015, 01:34:57 PM
but the perks really give you the chance for one kit KO. The healer build with no primary stats but uses the power fist is cool and all but is it OP? I think my build is cooler.
I said "OR". Dumping INT is the solution here, those bonus-perks mean nothing if you can't land a punch, and you can't land a punch if you won't even get close enough. Basically that INT could be dropped pretty much anywhere: ST,EN,CH,LK... those are much more important for a melee char then wasting shit ton of STATS just to get a single Hit The Gap on a weapon.