Print

[Niamak]

He used machete in second video, don't worry this one weapon is absolutely OP. You should be surprised.

off topic: He really went full YOLO with power armor and machete, it's funny.

What if experienced waki attacks from behind every hit?

In the first video, if he was sneaking and attacking from behind, he would be godlike, I agree. 

Their job is to locate enemies they don't need sniper vision for that.

With perception penalty, do you really think they don't need sniper vision to be able to scout enemies who have sniper vision ?

They can't use gun ? Yeah they can't use mirkor

Im not saying they can't use DSR or pipe rifle, Im saying they can't use guns as effectively as other build because instant kill wakizashi builds are power builds meant for wakizashi. It's only a small detail, I guess.

[nailbrain]

this is one of the two close combat builds that is good for now (other is Cprod critter)
why u want so badly to destroy it ?
all melee build must be meatballs dat must be shot for fun and if they manage to get near only thing capable of being tingling ?

[paragon]

> With perception penalty, do you really think they don't need sniper vision to be able to scout enemies who have sniper vision ?

Most of combat chars do not need / don't have PE more than 5. It requires dedicated spotter to has high PE / four eyes with many scoped. Especially after LDR nerf, but FoV bonus isn't used that often as well. Sneakers are decent and important scouts.

[Anza]

Im not saying they can't use DSR or pipe rifle, Im saying they can't use guns as effectively as other build because instant kill wakizashi builds are power builds meant for wakizashi. It's only a small detail, I guess.

I understand what you mean, of course they wont have the perks, but when their scouting job is over and fight starts, they can use mirkor to KB or supersledge if in buildings, that makes them usefull and that is to be added to their usefulness for scouting, so they have their place in ZC atm

[nailbrain]

does watchtower works as described ? because if it does single perk almost nulifies entier build

[RazorRamon]

The less players there are, the more powerful sneak is

In the big ZC battles of old you were at times unable to get behind the enemy since there were enough people to watch every possible entry point. And even if you did get behind them you'd still have to worry about reinforcements arriving.

A group of only 5 enemies is in direct comparison way easier to predict and can only cover a smaller portion of any map. It's easier to get behind them and there will be more opportunities to strike as there are less factors to watch out for.


So if you wanna nerf sneakers, tell your friends to play the game again.
Dont try to balance the game around the current state of low scale battles, its hopefully not gonna stay that way forever.

[SnowCrash]

does watchtower works as described ? because if it does single perk almost nulifies entier build

Yeah i will like to know how this perk really work, i have read very different versions of the effects, but none as a reliable source of what it does.

For what i undestand from the description, it makes you to detect chars in the front sides at same range as in the front. So it doesnt affect back or backsides.
So it doesnt feel like will nullify the sneak build.

On topic: i think that making weapons not related with the sneak skill can help to balance sneak.
As is now, you can use the bests melee weapons only having 200 in sneak, without raising a single primary skill.

Problem with that is that it will force you to get 250 melee (to unlock silent dead), and 200 sneak, which won't leave much options

[Anza]

I have watchtower and the few times I encountered sneakers I could see them at 5 hexes from sides and behind (although "behind" is hard to tell as I was moving). I won't say it nullifies sneak build as they are ready for you while you have to react and if you dont manage to KB/KO them they still slaughter you  Aiming is too long so weapons like combat shotguns etc

One time i tried to run and the sneaker drew a gun to shot me to make me fall 

[paragon]

Watchtower affect these formulas with angle = 0 :

max_range = (max_range * (100 - ((sneaker_skill - 50) * 20) / 50 - 20 * angle)) / 100;
min_detection_range = (16 * (100 - angle * 20)) / 100;

max_range = CLAMP(max_range, min_detection_range, 100);

without it angle could be 0, 1 (side forward), 2 (side behind), 3 (right behind)

So you sneakers behind the with same multiplier as in front.

To understand real values, you can use my char planner implying I was able to reproduce the mechanics.

[Anza]

What does max_range mean in your formula ? The max range you can see a sneak ?
What about min_detection_range ? The minimal distance you can see a sneaker ? How is not related to sneaker_skill ?

Thanks for formula

[paragon]

From wiki:

Detection range: Detection Range = (Sight Range)*(1 - 0.2*{(Sneak - 50)/50 + Angle})
Minimum detection range = 0.16 * (100 - angle * 20)

From my char planner:

if (detRange < minRange) { res = minRange }
else { res = detRange }

So max_range it's range you can see sneaker = function(field_of_view)
min_detection_range - yes, no mater how sneaker skilled, you'll see him in minimum 3 hexes
behind

[Anza]

It's weird because it means if you have 225 sneak, people can see you at 30% of their sight range, and i'm pretty sure it is less than that from game experiences.

[mAdman]

See the problem with the "sneaker can only carry 10kg" argument, is that a wakazashi sneaker isn't even effected by this at all, he probably has spare space for more energy cells, that's like 40-60 minutes of sneak for them without a mule.

The 10kg penalty only ruins gun builds by forcing them to take only one weapon or two light weapons with very little ammo, wakazashi only weighs 2.5kg and jackets are 3 - 4.5kg.

My argument is why do only sneak wakizashi assassins get to be ridiculous in damage >.<

I can understand melee being stronger (or harder hitting) than ranged in general, it makes sense, but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee? (Cover of invisibility, 200% circumstantial damage buff, ability to also take BG or EW as a main skill and being as strong or stronger than a straight melee etc), I love the idea of the wakazashi build but it hits ridiculous extremes at times, which really need to be averaged out a bit more.

Maybe trading some of the waka's extreme circumstantial damage for some heavy and constant bleed chance and bleed damage?

Or if it must be kept at it's current damage level, maybe bump up its AP cost, so double clicked aimed shots are not possible (e.g. minimum of 55-60 ap after all BROF bonuses for headshots).

[paragon]

Ghost I   +20% Sneak when next to a wall.
Ghost II   +20% Sneak when within 5 hexes of a wall.

[Niamak]

The 10kg penalty only ruins gun builds by forcing them to take only one weapon or two light weapons with very little ammo, wakazashi only weighs 2.5kg and jackets are 3 - 4.5kg.

Yeah that's basically what I'm saying, melee sneaker cannot adapt to every situation because carry weight penalty.

Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.

but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee? (Cover of invisibility, 200% circumstantial damage buff, ability to also take BG or EW as a main skill and being as strong or stronger than a straight melee etc),

Don't forget about wakizashi instant build being a power build argument.

[Myakot]

but why do sneak melees get so many advantages over a non sneaking melee?

Because they'll have to sacrifice their survivability and ability to be usefull in an actual team fight. There is no real point in being pure melee. You can mix it up with any other class (preferably supporting) and be just as efficient. Sneak-melee doesn't have that kind of variability.

[mAdman]

I guess, but I would only see it as a sacrifice for low int or gifted champions, if tagged with say first aid, which is likely, 200 is easily achievable along with a primary and at least decent first aid.

No special stats have to be sacrificed to sneak, so the non sneak and sneak melee special builds could end up very similar anyway.

Rocking a CLC or even fire gecko leather as a melee sneaker (which is easily doable, albeit expensive, but expense becomes relative after time anyway, especially when clanning up) definitely doesn't put you at an armor disadvantage against anything less than PA, the main combat disadvantage is the sneak penalty timer, which a good melee sneaker will generally bypass by getting one or two shot basically insta kills and taking advantage of bloodthirst, sprinter or voodoo, or more likely, all at the same time (again with the extremes when it comes to sneaking and melee combining here), along with some kind of tankiness (even just high end and a couple of specific critical resistances to ensure escape in most cases).

Gahh, me and my textwalls, I can't help myself i'm sorry.

It just seems that a lot of extremes in the game are culminating with melee sneakers (highest alpha damage, best speed, invisibility cover to close range etc), almost all in the positive for them.

The last thing I personally want is for any build to be "nerfed" out of play, but if, as I was saying before, the extreme sides could be adjusted or re-calibrated in some way, as has been done with other "extremes" in game.

Hit and run comes to my mind when I picture a melee sneaker, but one hit kills (or two very fast hit kills) wasn't what I was expecting, I mean "properly" specced melee sneakers are explosive, it can't be denied, as it can't be denied that greater numbers help against them because they are the very definition of rambos by design

Bleed is perfect for hit and run in my eyes, a single (still high damage, just not explosive damage) high AP hit that applies a horrible bleed (boosting sprinter for the high AP hit) which in a lot of cases will cause one to die unless treated (boosting bloodthirst from a distance in theory, if they die to your bleed while you are stealthed right, which could be extremely useful), and even if treated, you are forcing defensive actions (doc and FA), while potentially getting away much easier. This also still leaves sneak melees with great potential for mopping up fleeing foes and small unaware groups/loners as per usual.

Makes sense to me anyway. The big dude with the big machete (or supersledge/powerfist ect), taking no effort to be hidden should definitely be the more "explosive" (high alpha strike) one in my eyes (if built to maximise melee of course), gives more reason and incentive to focus down melee tanks like this (pulling dps off team mates is a quality tank trait too) also great and immediate consequences (one or two hit insta kills) to the people who choose to ignore the huge melee dude closing gaps and running through the open etc.

Fuck i'm an opinionated asshole, so much text >.< sorry guys.

[Anza]

Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.

You can try being sarcastic all you want, I did carry sec for our squad scout, it works and if you cant manage to do it, well it doesn't mean it is not doable... Again we're talking about ZC situation for this carry thing (just to be sure we are not misunderstanding)

About the sacrifice from melee sneaker compared to gun sneaker, if you think you do not have versatility well i dont agree. As i said before, you can always shoot with guns, the fact that you dont have perks doesnt make you useless, ofc it will less optimized but numbers count. Moreover in most ZC fights, buildings are involved so melee weapons are viable. You also have some combat medic using melee, so as i am pretty sure most melee sneakers have doc or fa, they can still be useful.

What I mean is that melee sneakers and sneakers have their place in ZC, they may not be as optimized in group vs group fights as pure tank or other builds, but they can play as sneak very effectively, and still be able to play in ZC, while the ZC characters cant sneak. Moreover they are the scouts in ZC. I wonder why people say they lack versatility while i think it is quite the opposite.

[mAdman]

Anza's solution is to have a mule or a friend to carry your weapons and small energy cells for you all the time, so it's not really a downside for him. I'm like okay... but in reality I'm laughing in my toilet.

You can try being sarcastic all you want, I did carry sec for our squad scout, it works and if you cant manage to do it, well it doesn't mean it is not doable... Again we're talking about ZC situation for this carry thing (just to be sure we are not misunderstanding)

I also, successfully, use friends as mules quite often when sneaking/ask my closer friends to loot specific corpses etc, its a bit of mucking around, but without an SEC mule I wouldn't be able to participate properly in ZCs as a sneaker.

[Komrade]

I also, successfully, use friends as mules quite often when sneaking/ask my closer friends to loot specific corpses etc, its a bit of mucking around, but without an SEC mule I wouldn't be able to participate properly in ZCs as a sneaker.

Please don't think of your friends as mules, they might feel bad about it and refuse to give you the SEC when you need them.