FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

General section => Changelogs => Topic started by: cirn0 on November 19, 2014, 09:37:44 PM

Title: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on November 19, 2014, 09:37:44 PM
Just a small one. The reputation stuff is a primer for more changes regarding the reputation system.

Changes:
- CTF Flags no longer have collision
- CTF EXP reduced ( The exp reward was only temporary till the advanced faction system is setup )
- Removed reputation requirements for platoon invites / entry into the heart
- Removed reputation trade for relics

More ZC Revamp!
- Score gain rate scales with conflict size
- Zones now take 3600 points AND no enemy presence to capture
- Gain 1 point per person per second (Max 6 / second)

Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Captain Chilly on November 20, 2014, 02:29:22 AM
"removed reputation trade for relics"

that's kinda unnecesssary
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 20, 2014, 02:36:37 AM
"removed reputation trade for relics"

that's kinda unnecesssary
You don't need relic->rep trade if rep is not required for A+ quests\platoon requests.
On the other hand, it is a big step in solving the PK problem (which was present when more players were around, but still, for the future)
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: mAdman on November 20, 2014, 04:12:48 AM
Nice ZC change, seems pretty bulletproof, well done.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: greenthumb on November 20, 2014, 04:58:34 AM
whats the rate of reward scale? for 1 on 1 and 6v6 for example?

Also what am i supposed to do with 1000+ relics? Maybe make the junk trader buy them?
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 20, 2014, 05:35:12 AM

- Removed reputation requirements for platoon invites / entry into the heart


I would rather have those requirements increased, although the removed reputation trade for relics is a good move.

What will be the purpose of reputation in the future ? It was a key feature, since the very concept of the server, a few years back. I set AOP appart from other servers. I hope it will remain important in preventing/allowing players to do stuff.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 20, 2014, 05:39:10 AM
Quote
I hope it will remain important in preventing/allowing players to do stuff.
Too many TKs and you get kicked out of your faction. Seems pretty important to me ;P. And once again, removing that imbalanced "ha-ha I have dolla-dolla-relic-bills and I can kill whoever I want" made regaining that rep not that easy. AFAIR other ways are performing assignments, pvp and ZC? (And mb new CTF, unfortunatelly enough I'm a douche that doesn't have the time to play FO :( )
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 20, 2014, 09:06:18 AM
The question of the reputation remaining important is still relevant for the normal people that don't TK.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on November 20, 2014, 10:49:19 AM
In the future you will be receiving a salary from your Faction. Based on your reputation, your salary will be different. Your reputation will decay over time towards a baseline in which you will no longer be paid if you do not remain active and contributing to your faction.

The salary will also be affected by the amount of players in your faction and how much income your faction has. Faction income will be depended on the game world state, we will start off with it being directly affected by Zone's controlled and expand this concept toward every activity.

Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: 3.14 on November 20, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
Is there a "a projected earnings graph" for this, that You promised someone to send? ^^
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Teela on November 20, 2014, 02:53:17 PM
Again all praises for your efforts but it seems at least something is still broken.

We just went into paradise valley to cap it. 2 went in first, rest followed later. We were 6 people today but the timer got stuck at 16% for no appearant reason.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: greenthumb on November 20, 2014, 03:05:43 PM
most likely becouse 16% of 3600 seconds = 10 minutes, thus the time you should capture the zone with 6 people
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on November 20, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
I'll change it to show the actual points gained so we can all have a better idea of how this thing is working (I have no idea).
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Teela on November 20, 2014, 03:19:05 PM
Good plan. Just had a small run in with 3 brahminboys in GE. They killed us. Then the timer got stuck at 37%. They waited for another 10 minutes then gave up. Something really seems to be broken or not displaying correctly.

Thanks for all the effort though. You seem to be on the right track.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: greenthumb on November 20, 2014, 10:24:22 PM
i dont know whats behind the code, but IMO you ll need new instance/variable adopting previous percentage on each moment player entering/leaving the zone and rate calculated for amount of players at this moment

(1 Player in zone ~ P:=P+1=1) Lets say, player P1 is entering zone Z at time t1=0:00~ 0 minutes, then  timer T1=0% and rate R1=1/3600% added to T1 each second.

(2 Players in zone ~ P:=P+1=2): If any of players(P2) from same faction is entering zone Z at the time t2=10:00,~ 10,00 minutes, then T2=T1+R1*60*(t2-t1) = 0+1/3600*60*(10,00-0,00)=16,66%, rate becomes R2=2/3600% added to T2 each second.

(3 Players in zone ~ P:=P+1=3): If third player(P3) is entering zone Z at the the time t3=15:00 ~ 15,00 minutes, then T3=T2+R2*60*(t3-t2)=16.66+2/3600*60*(15,00-10,00)=33,33%, rate becomes ofc R3=3/3600% added to T3 each second.

(4 Players in zone ~ P:=P+1=4): If next player P4 is entering Z at the time t4=18:20~ 18,33 ~ T4=T3+R3*60*(t4-t3)=33,33+3/3600*60*(18,33-15,00)=50%, rate becomes R4=4/3600% added to T4 each second.

Now consider player leaving/dieing in zone Z:

(3 Players in zone ~ P:=P-1=3): Player P4 has died/left zone Z at the time t5=20:50 ~ T5=T4+R4*60*(t5-t4)=50+4/3600*60*(20,83-18,33)=66,66%, rate becomes R5=R3=3/3600% added to T5 each second.
.
.
.
Now consider reaching player limit of zonecontrol  (P:=0 or P:=7)
MIN
(0 Players in zone ~ P:=P-1=0): Player PX has left/died in zone Z at the time tX<60 minutes minutes, then TX<100%, rate becomes RX=R0=0/3600% ,Zone control stops, zone Z belongs to previous faction.

MAX
(7 Players in zone ~ P:=P+1=7): Player PY has entered zone Z at the time tY<60 minutes, then TY<100%, rate is not changed RY=R6=6/3600% still added to TY each second.


Actual timer T evaluation

Consider each entering/leaving player counter C, so everytime player leaves, dies or enters zone Z,counter becomes C:=C+1, then timer T evaluation is

T=TC+RC*60*(t-tC)

where:
T is actual timer since the begining of ZC [%]
t is actual timer since the begining of ZC[minutes]
TC is time of last player entry/leave [%]
tC is time of player entry/leave [minutes]
RC is rate determined by last player entry {0/3600...6/3600} [%]



Succesful ZC:

If timer reaches 100%(T>=100%), ZC stops, zone Z belongs to faction of players P.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 20, 2014, 11:18:29 PM
About the last part : don't forget that you have to eliminate enemy forces also.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: greenthumb on November 20, 2014, 11:23:14 PM
I believe enemy forces have to eliminate yourself before time runs out, am i wrong?
Yeah actualy I am, but i am not gona edit previous post, since it should be simple condition, also if enemy enter the zone, timer T will keep running till 100%, but zone wont be taken unless there is 100% and no enemies in zone

Another case would be if first faction was defeated and only enemy players left, in such situation i believe ZC should start for actual number of these players right after, unless they were owners previously.

@topic: i have figured out way easier solution for evaluating timer working with just with number of players in zone, but i ll type it down tomorow and if it will be actualy needed.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Niamak on November 21, 2014, 03:32:20 AM
Now the core have motion sensors everywhere, it's crazy and not safe anymore.  ;D
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 21, 2014, 05:57:04 AM
why zc has again to be regressed to toilet camping ? current system is even worse than initial point system
and for who will open mouth how good is this zc ill point te most obvious fact PvP droped again badly
overcomplicating things dictated by developers grand vision for the game leads to ruin
best game is easy to learn and hard to master
the so called flaw of quick capture was the reason for alot of movement and alot of very good fights for all the sides we all made great battles
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 21, 2014, 06:03:20 AM
@nailbrain
It's an ongoing revamp, may be wait untill all the changes are set in place and then make assumptions? Besides, I can't see how can this be a toilet camping, when you HAVE to kill enemies in the location in order to capture it, not just sit there and wait for the timer.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 21, 2014, 06:30:24 AM
I don't see anything complicated in current ZC system.
Wanna cap: bring 6 people and don't let enemy in. Done.
Now zones have the meaning in opposite to cap for a 5 seconds with 2 chars. It's exactly how it should be.
ZC stays the same and if people are not doing pvp because they can't cap the zone in 5 seconds, it's not the problem of ZC system, it's problem of their mindset.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 21, 2014, 07:02:11 AM

Now zones have the meaning in opposite to cap for a 5 seconds with 2 chars. It's exactly how it should be.

That thing wasn't even ZC.

ZC stays the same and if people are not doing pvp because they can't cap the zone in 5 seconds, it's not the problem of ZC system, it's problem of their mindset.

I believe it is more a matter of number.
When we were 1-2 lawyers willing to go into the core, that thing was the only option to have a few zones.
But even there, it wasn't really ZC, it was just to have the closest zones for the traders. I am glad it is over.
From now on, i believe we won't ZC unless we are at least three players.
(which happens at least once a week)
Not complaining about this, just explaining why we won't take zones as often.
But i believe we will occasionnally, as Phoenix remains the goal of the game.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 21, 2014, 07:05:02 AM
now you come bluesuit and log off in ^^
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 21, 2014, 07:10:14 AM
I am an utilitarian. I had to try.
But I believe it doesn't work on the long run.
You have to be very lucky to stay alive one hour, and you only take one zone at the time, which suck for the traders inventory.
I am OK with that not working, as it makes taking zones as it should be. Harder.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 21, 2014, 07:36:22 AM
complicating things is bad at general
i know dat lore idea is control over the core but by itself as of now is shallow and pointless activity and sacrificind PvP opportunities to fullfill devs vision on what phoenix is
so whole server is pushed in certain direction to comply with the RolePlay idea how important is ZC yet all i allways hear is "this is not RoPl server" , "it is PvP team play server" so i see big contradiction here
it was fun when it was fast and served as excuse for battles now is boring selfimportant shit

 
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: lvhoang on November 21, 2014, 07:47:45 AM
why zc has again to be regressed to toilet camping ? current system is even worse than initial point system
and for who will open mouth how good is this zc ill point te most obvious fact PvP droped again badly
overcomplicating things dictated by developers grand vision for the game leads to ruin
best game is easy to learn and hard to master
the so called flaw of quick capture was the reason for alot of movement and alot of very good fights for all the sides we all made great battles

I have to agree that the previous update forced a lot of people to go PvP.
This update looks like less people are fighting :/
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 21, 2014, 07:51:40 AM
If by "fighting" you mean bboy+family capping the core in 5 minutes, I don't think it has any connection to team-play pvp.
If you wanna pvp, v-tec is up and ready. Give us an opponent and we'll come.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 21, 2014, 08:08:17 AM
well capping and camping was and is vteks parmount the troll capture forced you to move around
what are you all rail shooter games fans ?
btw your ppl paragon all they do now is toileting i must run and shout in maps but all i hear is echo from the toilets and ocassional v teks who says to prefer to camp te toilet and move next zone instead of fight
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 21, 2014, 08:17:24 AM
I don't get you point. You want pvp or not? If yes, start capping the zone and hopefully someone will tell us about it and we'll assemble the team. Better come to IRC and say me, it'll probably bring us faster. In the same time if you're capping the zone, it's your who are camping, not v-tech, right? So one more problem is solved.

V-tech has no enemy to fight, many of us joint family to have at least any fights. And only because of such people I believe we had any decent fights last time. I don't care about zones, I tried to capture couple yesterday and no one of opponents revealed, so I quited
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 21, 2014, 08:23:04 AM
my point is the troll capture shifted attention from CAPiNG to PvP and that was good
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 21, 2014, 08:29:49 AM
As John Porno said it's not arena pvp server, so I guess you'll have to accept that some people enjoy having some accomplishments like ability to capture the core.
If you want pvp, it doesn't change much for you.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Niamak on November 21, 2014, 08:32:20 AM
nailbrain if you were the guy doing ZC earlier today, my vtech character was in toilet because i was afk. Don't take this for granted.

If you just want pvp, you can simply ask and I will come.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 21, 2014, 09:34:35 AM
So Funeh reedz!

I certainly CBA to try and cap a zone all by my lonesome anymore, because it just doesn't work too well. All it takes is for 2 or 3 enemies to turn up and unless I get lucky or they played really badly, there isn't much I can do about it.
And finding 5 others to come with me? Goodluck!
When I'm around there might be 4 or 5 players online but they mostly don't wanna core, or PvP.

I saw 5 or so Tecs last night one was in PA, when I told the faction all I got was

"We can't contest that"

And sadly its very true, we couldnt. I know Tecs were waiting for a fight and it felt shit not to be able to give it to them.

From where I'm looking, players that think they can't win won't even try anymore.
I dont really know how I fully feel about the new system.  :-\

(Editzz) Feels bad saying I cba to go to core solo anymore, but that's truly how I feel
            I do still go, but I don't get the same feeling of suspense and wonder like I did before.
            which makes me enjoy the experience less.

            The core used to scare me in the most awesome ways possible, now I dunno.

            Thats my two cents.

(Final edit) Everything I mentioned would probably be fixed by more players and of course
                 I'm sure thats what it all has in mind, not just how one player feels when alone.
                 I know its supposed to be a team effort this is just sorta how is it atm, from where
                 I stand at least.

                 I'd like to hear some lawyers opinions, because AFAIK they have the least active dailey
                 players atm. how are they coping with scavenging, PvP stuff?
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: mAdman on November 21, 2014, 10:28:31 AM
Yeah I'd wait until the process is finished before fully judging any of the mechanics, who knows what is temp placeholder and what is solid built etc.

Also the main reason for ZC changing, I thought, was because the older systems could be abused or exploited very easily, or were not perfect in design or had flaws (from devs perspective).

I'd rather a somewhat complicated system that requires reading into or inquiring about, than a simple self explanatory one that is broken.

Remember the devs can add or change up NPC texts in game, so if it gets complicated just add an NPC that explains it at the bases.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 21, 2014, 11:29:23 AM
I'm literally shocked at "don't complicate things, make this game easy". I sure hope that's a joke. Saying that game needs to have LESS features than it already has is kinda... silly, I guess.
You do understand that if you want PvP, you need players to PvP, right? And players are usually lured (at first) by the amount of progress it makes in a span of time. Imagine all those players (that went to play FO2) visiting this server with a thought of: "Meh, I'm tired of that server, let's look at AoP. Oh a wondrous thing, nothing's changed, well I guess I won't even try to play there", just because you want LESS features.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on November 21, 2014, 11:33:07 AM
All of these changes are made in mind for the future, I have not been changing things in reaction to anything that is happening to the current state of the server, so yes, some changes will be screwing the environment for the low population that we are already. All changes are not designed around this low population, we look forward to having players again someday.

I grateful to the players still playing despite the server being dead which is why I have not simply shut down the server. I must admit, I am using you guys as testers for all these changes. However, if the game is not fun, it is probably to our benefit to stop playing until it is fun again as I personally cannot focus on appeasing current players and developing. I would rather you stop and come check the forums time to time than to be burned out and bitter about the game.

I appreciate everyone who cares about what we're doing here and the best response I have is to continue development!

 
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 21, 2014, 11:38:55 AM
@Cirn0 God

As long as the server is up, Ima keep playing/being a guinea pig.
Low population or not.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 21, 2014, 11:56:33 AM
                 I'd like to hear some lawyers opinions, because AFAIK they have the least active dailey
                 players atm. how are they coping with scavenging, PvP stuff?

Most of the lawyers currently playing don't seem to be there daily, but most of them are there since the beginning of the cession, often with now empty platoon, so they are above level 24 and have aren't much broke. Which is hard is to be there in the same time to do things together. Sometimes we manage to be 3-4 and play hide & seek with the two big swarms. Considering the timer is anonymous, it is fun to guess which is who and where we should be so could they face each other instead of us. Being solo is much less fun on the other hand.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: lvhoang on November 22, 2014, 01:06:34 AM
If by "fighting" you mean bboy+family capping the core in 5 minutes, I don't think it has any connection to team-play pvp.
If you wanna pvp, v-tec is up and ready. Give us an opponent and we'll come.

Not sure how i can make it simpler to understand....By fighting and pvp...I mean people going to the core to fight other factions, in whatever shape or form.  I am not talking about zc. Lolz
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 22, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Large PvP clans dont want to share factions , if they can build own bases the fonline communitty will shift back here
whatever else be dungeon , PVE , gameplay , maps , quests ..... wont do
and letting them build own bases is not bad
bases for Clans
Factions for random ppl
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: mAdman on November 22, 2014, 06:58:56 PM
I appreciate everyone who cares about what we're doing here and the best response I have is to continue development!

Love your work Cirn0.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: good guy on November 25, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
its good to see that the game is still going
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on November 25, 2014, 05:03:47 PM
Large PvP clans dont want to share factions , if they can build own bases the fonline communitty will shift back here
whatever else be dungeon , PVE , gameplay , maps , quests ..... wont do
and letting them build own bases is not bad
bases for Clans
Factions for random ppl
yeeeess
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 26, 2014, 05:32:11 AM

bases for Clans
Factions for random ppl

In short, ZC for clans, and assignements for random people.
I can't believe you want to destroy the whole server identity so the name of your buddies can appear on the timer...
If you want clans, go on Fonline 2. If am sure the players there will gladly open their closed clans for you.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: lvhoang on November 26, 2014, 05:41:57 AM

bases for Clans
Factions for random ppl

In short, ZC for clans, and assignements for random people.
I can't believe you want to destroy the whole server identity so the name of your buddies can appear on the timer...
If you want clans, go on Fonline 2. If am sure the players there will gladly open their closed clans for you.

QFT
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 09:45:07 AM
In short, ZC for clans, and assignements for random people.
I can't believe you want to destroy the whole server identity so the name of your buddies can appear on the timer...
If you want clans, go on Fonline 2. If am sure the players there will gladly open their closed clans for you.

I can't see how new players will destroy the whole server identity (not sure what is it anyway). He and many others stated completely different and worthy reason: ability to play with friends.
If you watch the current state of server it's pretty simple: no organized groups at all, no closed clans at all, almost no players. Is it what called server identity in your idea?

The problem is simple: some people are going to play only with friends or not play at all. It seems that without such people it'll be very hard to populate server for a long time, because those bands hold the community bringing chance to struggle (or even suffer) giving the purpose of learning and getting better.

How exactly ability to join separated "loners" group will not random people play?
If you have no separated players group nothing will change for you except that you'll finally have some opponents (which I believe much more important).

If you have any better idea to populate the server, bring it on.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Anza on November 26, 2014, 11:45:21 AM
What Nao means is that by allowing clans to make their own faction, you remove the essence of AoP which is to prevent clans to ruin loners/new players/casual players experience. At the moment, although it's also due to lack of people, people in factions play together in ZC and that is great.

If there were clans, they will stomp on random people factions, making them stop the game sooner or later. This is not what AoP was targetting to begin with, it is even the opposite :)
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 11:58:00 AM
"Ruin loners/new players/casual players experience" how? By being experienced and better in the game?
"it's also due to lack of people, people in factions play together in ZC" - while in AoP actually were more than 20 players people played together in ZC as well. And some player experience was ruined because some people are not mature enough to play in team. You kill enemy and deserves his loot - but useless loner picks up loot from him, so you have to kill him (stealing is bad). But still every organized group prefered to have any amount of back up to fight enemy, so every mature loner was in deal.

So I think that essence of AoP is letting players be useless / not learn / have 2 zone controls in a day because of low player base?

I think this will make people stop playing much faster (which is done).
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Anza on November 26, 2014, 12:28:09 PM
"Ruin loners/new players/casual players experience" how? By being experienced and better in the game?

Yes and you know it, experienced players stomp on casual that's a fact, but in Fonline servers, most experienced clans like this position and dont accept/help newcomers and chain kill them with hate. Just read most Pvp Discussions on forums it's always Ego ego ego. AoP is the first server to force experienced players to play with those new/casual players so they can learn.

Your only example against that is that some blue suits looters come to free loot, everybody hate that, but it's a downside for community to grow stronger in experience and bounding. Of course the gameplay is not perfectly fit for that, but it is the first Fonline server to go in this direction and that's what I love about it.

I mean if you want to have clans wars, which is the opposite of AoP faction wars core system, why did you even come here instead of playing Reloaded or FO2 ? They do very good on that, no need to deny that.

And the lack of players atm is mostly due to FO2 wipe AND the fast that the gameplay is far from perfect. Still the game is enjoyable, mechanics ideas are awesome and really different, and I do apply to the faction wars system :)
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 26, 2014, 12:51:26 PM
You kill enemy and deserves his loot - but useless loner picks up loot from him, so you have to kill him (stealing is bad).

Not i am the guy that come in bluesuits to loot bodies i didn't shoot, but those guys that aren't mature enough to accept that they can't control all the loot are not better than the noobs they are shooting at. I rather have those noobs and lose some loot opportunities than have my faction chat spammed by those troll that keep whining about that Minigun or combat armor they should have looted. I would even say that those trolls made some of my team mates leave the faction and join another one with less whiners. Anyway, the stuff is so easy to get (at least  compared with other servers) that the loot is often a non-issue.

There is the spy issue, but it is easily countered by making private squad/platoon within the faction, and still allow noobs and players of intermediate level to join the action, or be defended when scavenging.

PS: By the way, open faction don't prevent you to play with friend. You can both play with your friends and meet new friends in open factions.


Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
"Experienced players stomp on casual that's a fact"
I suspect you didn't play the beginning of the session, when experienced clans could win only using back up of newcomers. In the same time I count myself as an experienced players, who played with lawyers in the beginning, and then with v-tec, I've never stomp anyone and most of experienced players I play with never did.

"Just read most Pvp Discussions on forums"
Just listen what randoms in game say about most of people from different faction. There's no connection between experience and hate, just players by itself hater and experienced can expressed it at least no only in words but in actual in-game fights and activities. I've been insulted by clan-less family for dozen times for just being in different faction.

My example is playerbase and actual ability to have an opponent. I don't see any growing community, I see players which doesn't play because they have no one to play with and against which could never come back to Fonline world.

If you watch the graphs you'll see that AoP playerbase never been connected to any other server wipes. And PvP is here better than at any other server but it's not used just because there are not enough players and experienced+organized players to use it.

naossano, I see randoms whining about loot much more often than experienced players. As well as randoms stealing loot from fallen friendlies which then whining that they have been killed for it (and, oh my, lost their loot which usually nobody tries to take... except other randoms, lol).

How the hell anyone wouldn't be able to join the action if faction system stays the same?
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 26, 2014, 02:18:51 PM
They just need to install the client, join a faction and do ZC with them...

Dunno in which faction you were, but amongs the lawyers, the most whiners were part of the most numerous platoon and had high fame. They thought that they were more entitled to whine because of that. On the other hand, they were the first to rush on the loot. (although, i don't want to make a case about that. I don't hold grudge agains't them. I just found them very annoying and i don't think they had the "team spirit" while acting like that)

Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 02:28:42 PM
why dont you do ZC naossano?
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Anza on November 26, 2014, 02:46:28 PM
I suspect you didn't play the beginning of the session, when experienced clans could win only using back up of newcomers. In the same time I count myself as an experienced players, who played with lawyers in the beginning, and then with v-tec, I've never stomp anyone and most of experienced players I play with never did.

That's exactly what I am saying, and what makes AoP unique. Newcomers/Casuals have a role, experimented players need them and they need exp players. So you can see it works when there are lot of people, only drawback is troll bluesuit looters.

Now let's think what would happen with same population but clans + factions. Clans will fight each other happily, and random faction will get crushed everytime. Sooner or later, there will be only clans doing ZC, and we'll be back to Reloaded or FO2.

You're totally wrong about your graphs, most Lawyers went to FO2, it was one of the swarm faction and now it's empty. Same with BB, they had a team (maszrum ? I'm not sure) which went to FO2. Pistoleros from VTech went to FO2 too. All after wipe. If they prefer to play in clans, there is no issue about that, but they went to a server that suits them. And again, there's nothing wrong about that.

How the hell anyone wouldn't be able to join the action if faction system stays the same?

I guess you wanted to say "if faction system were to change", and it is because random faction will get tired of getting bullied by clans, etc
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 04:02:20 PM
> most Lawyers went to FO2

Who exactly? I knew almost only 1 organized band in lawyers which made the whole ZC for them - New Order, and they didn't go Fo2 but Requiem AFAIN. It was just 5-6 experienced guys to the end with help of randoms. I think also there were BBS? Following new order mostly, and not active in zc by themself.
One of the reasons to leave: no stable / not enough opponents to fight.

> Same with BB
They had several organized _clans_ almost without randoms. Mostly Russians, with help of several different bands (Pistoleros, Mushroom's), which didn't last long because clans had different perspectives on how to play the game.
Later Mushroom joint family but didn't succeed to make any of the randoms to be sustainable fighters and left because couldn't fight against organized / experienced / swarming lawyers and v-tec.
Pistoleros joint v-tec and played with us for a while, then left because "had to play with noobs" and no stable / not enough opponents to fight.
Russian platoons were separated and outnumbered then, and BBoys as ZC faction didn't appear for a month. Now there's playing 1 Russian platoon, which can't communicate effectively with others, so they feel outnumbered and outgunned (although they are comparing to v-tec).

Those clans would glad to play this server, but low player base and some "noob/have to play with people I hate issues" for them were the reason to leave. Server where to doesn't mean anything.

Quite a lot of gangs tried but didn't succeed in communicating with each over, what leads to current 20 players online, where v-tec is dominating and nobody can't oppose anything, so v-tec get bored and stopping to play as well. So you'll have immersioned komrade and bunch of other players which doesn't try to play the team game as a team (implying family and other randoms which are not "clan" and not trying to be).

Now as I said I consider myself as an experienced players and currently play with 90% new people I've never talk to before I joint AoP. You can call us "clan", because we are trying to be organized and have a common leaders. This process is natural and it's great that there's such a possibility for it as pre-arranged factions. But, if v-tec has no those experienced leaders, people don't really play / able to play. And experienced leaders are not going to play if it's boring (no decent pvp like currently).

In time of many players pre-arranged gangs had 20+ players in combat, no clans usually can gather so much, so they won't be able to "bull" anything.


Again, I'm not telling that other servers faction system should be applied fully in AoP (although I don't see any harm from it IF "open pre-arranged factions" have leaders and manpower), but it's obvious that you don't understand the situation that well as you think.

In the same time as there're a lot of stuff is going to be added which will bring some old / new players back, as far as I know one of the things will be expansion to 8 pre-arranged factions which actually should mostly solve the problem.
(but someone in the Internet wasn't correct, so I needed to fix it)
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: lvhoang on November 26, 2014, 04:05:29 PM
why dont you do ZC naossano?

He is - but with 3 players online with the Lawyers, you wont see them capture a lot of zones.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 26, 2014, 04:14:23 PM
V-teks"dominating" the core
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 04:21:03 PM
V-teks"dominating" the core

Thank you for the great example of random player whose hate is much bigger than ability to create and cooperate. That one had ability to join v-tec organized group but cared about looting random dead bodies much more and never wanted to share his existence with "main party" of the v-tec. Thus his hate is so much right now, that he's posting a screenshot to insult someone while we are discussing about the world problems.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 26, 2014, 04:29:30 PM
Here is a pic of suff cooperating/sharing existence with a team.

and a pic of Law trying to ZC (only shows 2 but there were 4 or 5)

You only see everything for your point of view, others may not be thinking what you are.

Not trying to insult you.

Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 26, 2014, 04:33:15 PM
thou most of what paragon said is true
i dont understand wat is bad bout clans
clans will run their shit the same way they do in all servers , but all other loners, pve ,carebears will be part of one of four faction
what bettere way for them to be introduced to teamplay , pvp , tactics, and number of ppl to back you up
average clan size 15 ppl 6 7 more promient clans exist lets say 100 ppl
on good days server was filled with 350 pp
350-100=250 250/4~60 ppl on average for faction
now dat crude numbers will produce myriad of aliances , intrigue , politics-PVP
random dudes tend to follow where the player mass goes so statement dat AOP is better suited for clanless ppl is invalid
somebody sayed dat clans will stomp the factions , just imagine the horde of faction players camping their gates along the nasty grid patrols , so you and your brave clanmates are going to kick some other clan ass BUT, u must enter the core
at first it is easy BUT in time cuz clan people like to kill anyone suddenly WHOLE core is hostile cuz u know u cant take zones
yet your sworn enemy by chance is less ashole than u and befriend certain faction
and so on........................
 
 
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 04:33:49 PM
I don't understand what you're trying to say by your post, Stem Sunders.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 26, 2014, 04:42:00 PM
it was just a joke
i dont hate teks nor am trying to insult anyone
am happy there are still players to play with
cuz enemies are as much needed as friends
above all we all are fellow PLAYERS
btw i think paragon refers to vaultboy but am not vaultboy
am sorry if i didnt get it right
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 26, 2014, 04:45:22 PM
"why dont you do ZC naossano?"
I do believe he was there although not in the screen. naossjr is it?

"Thank you for the great example of random player whose hate is much bigger than ability to create and cooperate. That one had ability to join v-tec organized group but cared about looting random dead bodies much more and never wanted to share his existence with "main party" of the v-tec."

Referring to suff? If not then my bad.

"but it's obvious that you don't understand the situation that well as you think."

I don't think any one of us can understand the situation entirely, I get that you have lots of experience with the games. Much more than I'll ever have, but still.

Again I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm not agreeing with you either.
Because I can't comment on what clans would do to/for AoP, I didn't play the others long enough to really find out how clans worked.
I do know that I didn't/don't like the other Fonlines game play/world/set up though.
I like AoP for what it is. really does feel like a different game from my pov, ofc

(Added) I really like being forced to play with other people, noob or vet its all good.
I also understand that not everyone gonna feel that way.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 04:50:16 PM
Character Suff is mostly played only by me.
Refference was about another player.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 26, 2014, 04:51:56 PM
Character Suff is mostly played only by me.

Oh well that makes sense then lol.

Out of interest who were you talking about?
If its VaultBoy I gotta say hes been quite the team player and a jolly good laugh, at least when around us anyway.


i dont hate teks nor am trying to insult anyone

cuz enemies are as much needed as friends
above all we all are fellow PLAYERS


Truth!
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on November 26, 2014, 04:53:02 PM
for who is your comment ? VaultBoy
or me
cuz i have never been part of anyting but  BBs
i even dont know how enemie bases looks exept the Vault where i send my alt to look around
(btw it is nice and very practical base)
Goofy ????
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 26, 2014, 04:59:36 PM
The story about the VaultBoy. We had quite unpleasant experience with him and his friends in v-tec.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: lvhoang on November 26, 2014, 05:12:35 PM
V-teks"dominating" the core

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL OMG What are you guys doing to Suff! its horrible!!!

@ Stem Sunders:
LOL yeah VaultBoy is pretty fun to play with. Not too emotional and likes teamplay.
But then at the end of the day, we re all fellow players. You can't really hate people you don't know.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Niamak on November 26, 2014, 05:45:47 PM
AoP is better suited for clanless people.

Clans don't accept random people.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on November 26, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
AoP is better suited for clanless people.

Clans don't accept random people.

Everyone is random to somebody else.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Niamak on November 26, 2014, 06:11:05 PM

What paragon said about BB is pretty true. I was BB and participated in most ZC during that time. He is definitely right on point, incredible to see how well he put it down.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 26, 2014, 06:27:31 PM
I do play ZC with lawyer with naossano sr, and another faction with another character.
(and another RP)

About lawyers platoons, they were three big ones initially, the Judge, the TTTLA and the BBS. BBS joined another faction quite early, and many TTTLA left for different reasons, and the lack of clans wasn't the reason. Anyway, when we wanted to stick together instead of the rest of the faction, we could easily do it by taking another zone at the same time or doing PVP without starting the ZC. (at the time you needed to manually activate the flag)

What is unfortunate is that the Bboys & family allied themselves a little too late. Most lawyers were getting tired of only fighting the V-TEC. Bboys/family had nice tactics, but not enough number to make a difference agains't us or the V-TEC. By the time you allied, most lawyers had already left.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Anza on November 26, 2014, 06:28:22 PM
Again, clans will stomp on casual/newcomers, it's like that in every Fonline, dont talk about swarm when you see the builds they have, the equipment they use. And you know that well, you can easily win 5v10 if in building + food/psycho/good build, a lot of people dont even know about psycho, a lot of people dont know what weapon is good against what, etc.. They wont learn if they are in their own faction and get pawned everytime they go out.

No point continuing to argue about that, if you can't accept that newcomers faction will get pawned and bullied all time until they all stop, well I can't say anything else anyway, so I'll just say that I'm happy how this server is done, even though I liked Reloaded a lot. And I do not want to change that.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on November 26, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
hmm server is ok i think , but at this point , 2 factions would make more sense . dunno why many players left , could be possiblbe because of that forcing the clans to play with randoms but on the other hand i think its alos because its 1st season , many things not impletended as planned and there is many content which isnt in game ... all other fonline servers are far away from their 1st season and have more content , so to me its no wonder that they are more populated atm . AoP got great PvP mechanics and theres no other server like this , ive herad also from alot of guys that they odnt like that grinding stuff at core , but then again i think to myself other serevers arent different . the only difference is that if u are in the dominating clan u dont have to grind anymore because u get so much stuff from TC boxes and shit , i guess thats what most players are used to ... and when u really played AoP longer than at the first rush then u notice that stuff isnt a problem here really to get .
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: MARXMAN on November 27, 2014, 01:49:35 AM
Basically it comes down to the fact that people who enjoy clan play just don't want to socialize with anyone outside their group. They would rather be killing EVERYONE than be forced to have people on their side. I don't think cooperation is a radical idea, I disagree with that rhetoric; in almost every online shooter in the past 10 years you have randoms on your team. AoP doesn't have steal or lockpick, so there really isn't anything to be worried about with talking to players that aren't a member of your in-group. People are stubborn as hell.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 27, 2014, 03:26:50 AM
"clans will stomp on casual/newcomer, it's like that in every Fonline"

I think it's your personal pain. It doesn't matter how much time you repeat yourself, it won't make it any more true. I played Fo2 in a small group, allying to fight "the stamping clans", several groups were always open to play with new players having no strict requirements (like NCR). They all were pretty effective. V-tec history as well shows clearly that everyone who wanted to play in team - got in the team. Fortunately, some "stamping" clans like Drones left soon enough and cross-clans problems was solved in first weeks and never appeared again.

And now your only point is "some people don't play that well as others can". So, well, we need to delete all drugs, leadership and give all only 1 type of equipment and char so everyone will be equal and not stomp.

The biggest difference between AoP and other servers in this is that you can't dominate by grinding, and there are not many other legal ways to dominate which clans know.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Komrade on November 27, 2014, 03:59:03 AM
Do whatever you like but Family will rise again, you think that whole Family cant be 1 big clan ?
We even started to use telepathy (a perk that have to be added btw) to communicate so we don't even have tell anything.

Goodjob  lawyers for coming to zc was fun to have you back.
Vaultboy is a fun to play player and a good player too, just to add.   

Also I wait for when the resurrection of the Phoenix happens again.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Anza on November 27, 2014, 04:25:40 AM
You're wrong with your assumptions, I've been in dominating factions in Reloaded and believe me, it's stomping the newcomers who dare come to TC or unprotected cities.

So many people are doing TC traps to kill new players doing caravans or just going between Junktown and Hub, for what ? Challenge ? Lol. A lot of experimented people do like to stomp on people they know they cant retaliate, of course they have more fun playing against other factions, but they are happy to kill new players too.

This is limited in AoP, look how Family was protecting their newcomers in the core with their hunting party, in Lawyers, everybody could go ZC too etc

Again, it's not that people won't have fun, it is that this server focuses on making a good gaming experience to newcomers too, and I dont want that to change.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: greenthumb on November 27, 2014, 04:44:30 AM
i have noticed discussion of inability to play and organize just group of players you like/know. But since i am too lazy to read whole thread i would like to just  highlight feature dedicated this purpose, its called "platoons".

If current game settings doesnt support this ability, it doesnt imply we need to segregate groups of players. What we need is improve feature of platoons to enable players having their own action ("phoenix missions") independent of other faction members.

Just enable new ZC type with higher reward and maybe achievements for platoons themselves, where they define some more difficult goal in NPC dialogue (e.g. taking zone in upcoming 30 minutes and holding it for 2 hours) Also global message should state there is pending mission of certain platoon. Other faction members should be warned they arent supposed to be in defined location and become excluded of ZC score aswell as reputation sanctions. Its up to platoon who will be invited to their action and who not, for this purpose there should be more ranks in platoons and platoon invitations managed via squad interface. Fame and other core activity indicators should be more transparent, so platoon can actualy choose players considering those for their action.


Casual ZC should remain untouched enabling other players to take another zone simultaneously.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 27, 2014, 04:51:37 AM
I've seen many times like Family were creating "good gaming experience" for newcomers killing  scavengers/bluesuites 5v1 with their hunting party. Isn't it stamping? Or because they didn't call themselves a clan it's not? What's the difference?

And when v-tec is capping family zones rarely somebody is able to protect any newcomers.

There's no good gaming experience without having a stable opponent, and there's no such in groups of randoms.

In the same time you're fully ignoring what I've said. V-tec was led by people from clans from the beginning and never had any severe problem.

In the same time as you said BEFORE clans left, they were able to defend scavengers.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 27, 2014, 05:44:33 AM
Those clans defended scavengers from their faction, people they would have shot if they were in another faction.

Anyway, i don't see why you want to torn appart the server to appeal the most immature unable to adapt players, and kick out the newcomers and all who enjoyed the server. AOP doesn't have to be Fo2 clone. It is quite the opposite. People should be able to choose the server that suit them.

Anyway, i knew people from various clans, and none of them complained about the faction system (beside you). Many complains were about the lack of features in Phoenix, beside ZC/PVP/Scavenging, the lack of NPC "characters" in Phoenix, the lack of dungeons early on, the grinding related Power Armor when it came, the melee sneaks, the assignements done outside of Phoenix, the whiners that complained about noobs, the fact some dev were more busy making new guns instead of new important features, etc...

Some of these complains were adressed by the dev after some time, but some of the players had already left.

There was also some true noob/casual that never played Fonline or any MMO, that came in AOP thanks to the huge communication around the project and who considered even AOP as too hard for them. Considering most of the experimented players were also learning the rules of the servers, leveling their chacters and gathering items, we weren't enough available to welcome them and teach them, which i deeply regret and try to make up with current newcomers. Some others just left when the new shiny things came out (Wasteland 2, Divinity Original Sin, Dead State, etc...)

There are also the langage barrier. In Fogen, for instance, we are willing to translate the game in french, to attract french players who don't understand english, but i was said by a dev that it was too early to do it, that there will be many text changes in the upcoming months. Once there will be french, german and other translations, there will be a few more players.

But all complains/praises aside, let's not forget that AOP is in a beta phase, the very first open cession, and hopefully currently only have half the scopes it will ultimately have.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on November 27, 2014, 05:49:41 AM
Agreed on almost everything you said, but "(Wasteland 2, Divinity Original Sin, Dead State, etc...)"

Wasteland 2 is worthless, divinity and Dead State both came months before AoP ;).
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: naossano on November 27, 2014, 07:18:37 AM
I could say Unrest/Xulima etc...
I mean, there was a lot of indie/AAA/Post-apocalyptic/isometric/RPG/solo/multiplayer, (not all in the same game) games released between august and november that have attracted a part of Fonline AOP potential playerbase, not mentioning Fo2's wipe.
Title: Re: 19.11.2014 Changelog
Post by: paragon on November 27, 2014, 07:38:30 AM
The argument "defending own scavengers" wasn't mine. Throw the stone other direction.

I explained why I "want to torn appart the server" several times in different forms, but you don't seem to perceive any.

Show me the place I'm complaining about faction system as well, please.

In the end I'm done with this discussion, nothing new considering last several repetitive messages which are not really based on facts.