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Author Topic: Nerf M1C and 14mm  (Read 11140 times)

S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Nerf M1C and 14mm
« on: September 21, 2015, 06:00:46 PM »

It should be self explanatory. These 2 weapons deal way too much damage and have high chance of Knock out which is almost every headshot. Getting criticaled for 130 HP + Knockout + Blind + Disoriented is too much IMO, especially when the shooter is 60+ hexes away.  In my opinion these 2 weapons should be dealing either a knockout or high damage, not both combined.

M1C
  • Remove 2x Slaughter Shot, replace with Better Rate of Fire and Blinding Strike.


14mm Pistol
Not sure what suggestions to make. It can shoot fast due to double tap, Critical strike + mozam = guranteed critical to the head + the perks make it a high % for knockout.
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MARXMAN

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 02:35:31 PM »

What I read: Shit son lets take away even more from mozam builds! That'll teach them to try and play that way. 14mm has a short ass range
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S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 02:43:02 PM »

What I read: Shit son lets take away even more from mozam builds! That'll teach them to try and play that way. 14mm has a short ass range
How exactly will this take away from Mozam build? If such thing even exist. .50 Deagle and 14mm have the same range. Deagle is great for bleed and 14mm is great for damage/KOs. If mozam never existed, people will spam deagle for causing bleed and use 14mm aimed shots to cause knockouts. But why use aimed shots when you got mozam, might as well make every pistol unable to aim anymore.  Mozam is just the stupidest perk ever made and you're here bitching that its needed for spammers.

Like me and courier said before, its better off a weapon trait for some weapons like Needler, Pulse pistol or Colt 1911 for example. Not a character perk that makes everyone a MLG Pr0 quiksk0per.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 02:49:34 PM by S.T.A.L.K.E.R »
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MARXMAN

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 05:04:14 PM »

What I read: Shit son lets take away even more from mozam builds! That'll teach them to try and play that way. 14mm has a short ass range
How exactly will this take away from Mozam build? If such thing even exist. .50 Deagle and 14mm have the same range. Deagle is great for bleed and 14mm is great for damage/KOs. If mozam never existed, people will spam deagle for causing bleed and use 14mm aimed shots to cause knockouts. But why use aimed shots when you got mozam, might as well make every pistol unable to aim anymore.  Mozam is just the stupidest perk ever made and you're here bitching that its needed for spammers.

Like me and courier said before, its better off a weapon trait for some weapons like Needler, Pulse pistol or Colt 1911 for example. Not a character perk that makes everyone a MLG Pr0 quiksk0per.

Mozam builds most definitely exist, and yeah deagle has a short ass range too, whoop dee fuckin doo. And These weapons werent used much before the introduction of mozam, and if it gets removed theyre going to be put down again, people aren't going to use them. Its the problem with fonline, everyone is constantly trying to find the most gamebreaking shit. If it isn't borderline OP, its rarely used in my experience. Its just a shitty circle of balance. Regardless of what gets changed theres a new meta in an hour.
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Kurwier

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 05:18:59 PM »

moozam my ass , its stupiest shit ive ever seen , plus deagle was used very frequently last year ... crit mechanics broken anyway , best proof is heavy knockbacks crit effects from fucking lowlife npcs ... doenst differ in pvp anyway. too much tweaks , too less brain > ded game
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:44:31 PM by Kurwier »
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S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 05:45:38 PM »

Mozam builds most definitely exist, and yeah deagle has a short ass range too, whoop dee fuckin doo.
Apparently choosing mozam shotty makes a mozam build  ::) Please do tell the SPECIAL and Tags of a mozam build. 14mm and deagle don't have short range, compared to some other pistols they have a lot.

And These weapons werent used much before the introduction of mozam, and if it gets removed theyre going to be put down again, people aren't going to use them.
People haven't bothered to use them. Look at needler for example, no one has used it for a while then out of no where, one guy uses it, its strong as fuck, next thing you know entire server is using them just begging for it to be nerfed.

Now I don't know why you love mozam so much, its like the only thing you can play. You complain you can't play avenger, burster, rocket, anything else but you can only play with mozam. This perk is just way too noob friendly, especially now since you can just hold click and you'll shoot people. Now combine that with 14mm which deals an average of 60 damage and can critical up to 100, its just stupid.
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Kurwier

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 05:53:51 PM »

Mozam builds most definitely exist, and yeah deagle has a short ass range too, whoop dee fuckin doo.
Apparently choosing mozam shotty makes a mozam build  ::) Please do tell the SPECIAL and Tags of a mozam build. 14mm and deagle don't have short range, compared to some other pistols they have a lot.

And These weapons werent used much before the introduction of mozam, and if it gets removed theyre going to be put down again, people aren't going to use them.
People haven't bothered to use them. Look at needler for example, no one has used it for a while then out of no where, one guy uses it, its strong as fuck, next thing you know entire server is using them just begging for it to be nerfed.

Now I don't know why you love mozam so much, its like the only thing you can play. You complain you can't play avenger, burster, rocket, anything else but you can only play with mozam. This perk is just way too noob friendly, especially now since you can just hold click and you'll shoot people. Now combine that with 14mm which deals an average of 60 damage and can critical up to 100, its just stupid.

who cares anyway , next seaosn 100 more guns which means more shitty meta due to balancing ... i would really love to know how much legendary M1Cs are around lately , must be alot since critmechanics not working right and 3+ sec knockouts + 120+ dmg aint not joke for ~60 ap and a range of ~70...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:55:31 PM by Kurwier »
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Niamak

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 05:53:54 PM »

Hello Courier, I think you still lack perspective to see the big picture.

http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2327.msg18790#msg18790

I would say if each weapon class has at least 1 good weapon then weapon balancing is in a pretty good shape.

Right now, what do we have ?
- Pistol : deagle
- Shotgun : pancor
- Sniper : m1c
- Sneak : needler
- Assault rifle : steyr aug
...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:56:36 PM by Niamak »
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Kurwier

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 06:44:56 PM »

Hello Courier, I think you still lack perspective to see the big picture.

http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2327.msg18790#msg18790

I would say if each weapon class has at least 1 good weapon then weapon balancing is in a pretty good shape.

Right now, what do we have ?
- Pistol : deagle
- Shotgun : pancor
- Sniper : m1c
- Sneak : needler
...

dude deagle is op as fock with moozambique , i have already stated my opinion on that on irc , look at the traits and perks in combination with the playerperk , i can describe the whole evolution of that gun since sept 2014 :

but first the actual version , to let you noobs see what i mean

Traits : Critical Strike (aka Djibouty Spam) , Moving Reload , Double Tap , Knockback
Perks : Knockback , BroF , HtG , Better Criticals , Bonus Damage

= 40% chance to knock a target back , Torso shots with this weapon uses aim crit chance , AP Regen+ doesnt pause during firing the gun ( animation) , can be reloaded while u move for additional 20% ap which results in a reload cost of 36 ap , 5% less ap required to shoot the weapon , 10% DT and DR reduction which is equivalent of 2x DR and 5x DT from the toughness perk , +1 to critical power which means critical strength rolls will get +1 automatically ... strenght rolls needed to determine the effects of a crit (bypass, weapon drop, winded and so on) , 5% more damage ...

now combine that with 400 ms unaimed shots 80% bleed from whole dmg and moozambique which gives a great chance on every 3rd shot to knockout someone plus blinding him (thx to blinding someone with headshots from any direction , like original devs hadnt anything in mind while putting blinds only as an eyeshoot straight direction mechanic ,changelog) in addition to all that stuff u see above ...

from my point of view that gun was introduced as some knockout , knockback weapon back when the server launched in sept 2014 , it dealt good knockouts and knockbacks for some low ap cost .... when u aimed at the eyez or the head with some great damage , after the great crit dmg multiplyer nerf the gun was forgotten because of its low damage , still the effects werent bad ... with moozambique introduction and changing it only as a pistol exclusive we come to that what we have now ...

plus i have to disagree with marxman , aop guns werent about spamming in the first place from what i have seen , to me some good balance is reached when u got multiply weapons in each class that serve for different purposes , e.g. a deagle for knockbacks , and high bleed dmg ... 14mm for knockouts and high dmg , the colt pistol for good damage and spamming while some target is standing under an critical effect that can be casued by spamming it on some target or from some other source , revolver for criteffects like disarming and crippling ... thats what i call a good balance not trying to force all guns with some ridiclous player perk to become spamming shit while it wasnt designed for that , thats the major reason why we have such imbalanced stuff in the first way i believe ... and thats why i suggested to reintroduce it as a weapon trait on pistols were it makes sense or which u want to be designed for spamming , needler is perfect in that case but it could also work on the colt or plasma pistol ... you could even separate it to be only on the regular plasma pistol which wouldnt make it op due to the magazine capacity , many things are possible if you think about what you do before u do it  , on other guns which arent designed for spamming it would cause what we see now...

its eazy to rebalance weapon perks and traits , stats , and ammo mods while it isnt easy to rebalance when some playerperk kicks in that is forcing the player to use unaimed shots / spamming on a whole weapon class ...

ofcourse spamming should have its place within all the other purposes but then design just one gun to be some kind of spamming gun instead of what i have explained , the colt is pretty much the spamming category of the sg pistols from what i see... if u dont understand that then rest in pepperoni ...

whole AoP mechanics to me are seeming to changed in the last time in the favor of boring one way gameplay , why is that so ? hell , i dont know ... but i pray that it was just for testing purposes or out of lazyness or because someone thought "yes , we can"... or cirn maybe played too many bad games ;)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 07:07:59 PM by Kurwier »
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mafiapl

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 07:08:57 PM »

Hello Courier, I think you still lack perspective to see the big picture.

http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2327.msg18790#msg18790

I would say if each weapon class has at least 1 good weapon then weapon balancing is in a pretty good shape.

Right now, what do we have ?
- Pistol : deagle
- Shotgun : pancor
- Sniper : m1c
- Sneak : needler
- Assault rifle : steyr aug
...

If i were to name "best" i would split it into more categories, it all depends how you play, what your other team members weapons are. Like Deagle/Gattling combo, deagle provides constant crowd control, gattling kills, none of those get in way because only 1 is bursting. Or steyr/m1c, 2x14mm
- Pistol crowd control : deagle
- Pistol dps : 14mm
- Shotgun dps : H&K CAWS (white)
- Shotgun hit and run : pancor (green)
- Sniper support : m1c
- Sniper dps : ACOG
- Sneak : needler
- Assault rifle : steyr aug
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MARXMAN

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 09:33:00 PM »

Mozam builds most definitely exist, and yeah deagle has a short ass range too, whoop dee fuckin doo.
Apparently choosing mozam shotty makes a mozam build  ::) Please do tell the SPECIAL and Tags of a mozam build. 14mm and deagle don't have short range, compared to some other pistols they have a lot.

And These weapons werent used much before the introduction of mozam, and if it gets removed theyre going to be put down again, people aren't going to use them.
People haven't bothered to use them. Look at needler for example, no one has used it for a while then out of no where, one guy uses it, its strong as fuck, next thing you know entire server is using them just begging for it to be nerfed.

Now I don't know why you love mozam so much, its like the only thing you can play. You complain you can't play avenger, burster, rocket, anything else but you can only play with mozam. This perk is just way too noob friendly, especially now since you can just hold click and you'll shoot people. Now combine that with 14mm which deals an average of 60 damage and can critical up to 100, its just stupid.


Laugh all you want, as I'm a self-admitted noob, but here's what I had put together for Mozam/Medic

5 5 5 1 8 10 6

FS + Blind Luck

TAG: SG, FA+DOC

Perks: Actionboy, SHD, Dr. Strangelove, Crit Strength, A Rush, Lifegiver, BROF, Mozam



Worked out damn well with Mozam, and is alrightish spamming with other shit.

Also STALKER, you forget that I played the game before mozam was introduced, and I played BGer/Burster for a good bit, even afterwards. I never said "I cant" I've always said, "Im not the best" at doing other things because its true. You might be super duper dynamic and have no problem changing how you play on a dime but I am not the same way. Its not the only way I play, but I did enjoy it when it applied to assault rifles as well as other weapons.


TBH couldnt care less whether or not mozam goes anymore. I really only cared when it applied to ARs.





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paragon

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 01:56:59 AM »

Just as a fact: from what I've seen in the current v-tec loadout there's no Mozam characters except probably sneakers for around 2 weeks.

Whiners gonna whine.

It doesn't mean that 14mm is not too strong though. I evaluated it as ~6 shots to kill a target before, but It seems that 5 is often enough to put the target in -HP at least, with simian warfare first shoot could be done in the head and with LDR modules target will be KO while you're doing the rest 4 torso shots. It requires critical build which is slighter less tanky than shotgun/aug builds, but in the window fight 1v1 you will most probably finish the target without letting it react properly. I would decrease 14mm damage slightly for the start.

M1C is a good middle range gun, finally. It requires critical build with less tank-ability again and loses significantly in close combat by itself. I can't exchange fire against MGs with M1C, so although it's mobile and more universal, it's still DSR-alike, which "can be easily countered by smoke", requires fire concentration and avoiding damage trading. It's hard to kill with M1C 1v1. Before current M1C middle range open space fights didn't even appear, it were either DSR+RL+MGs camping either building camping. Just as many sniper rifles before, being used in organised team they are strong and being hated by people loving to rambo / camp.  I wouldn't touch M1C yet and would take it as a draft for what sniper rifle should be.

From the other side economically M1C should be more expensive than middle weapon, own cost or/and ammo cost. Although I don't really know what's the current cost on it.

Sralker's m1c description is bullshit. Try to play differently from 1 strength and leather coat.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 07:09:36 AM by free rerolls man »
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clochard

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 10:15:39 AM »

m1c is the second sg sniper with the highest range: 80 for HK and 75 for M1C, so i would not call it a good "middle range" gun.

Also, nothing prevent a good critical character to take simian+mozamb if he didn't took fast shot as a trait (even if he did).

Still with a tanky character with 95% crit strenght resist + metal armor, you are not immuned to knockouts.

If you don't take a mighty knockout in your face, you have high chances to be blinded so unable to fight and to see threat direction, and/or take a good armor bypass in your face.

So problems are not related to thooses guns (i stil think all snipers (in all categories) should have big penalties when shooting at close range) but to the headshot mechanics and perks that are a little too much powerfull, some drowbacks for thoose perks like the "grenadier" one could be nice.
I don't know, add ap cost to the shots or less hit chance or add armor class to the target.

It is not whining, headshots should indead be deadly, but it feel like playing fps game with a aimbot.

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paragon

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 10:30:44 AM »

Your forgot DKS.
Middle range is because DSR is the only long range. What's max effective of M1C? about 68? So 2/3 of DSR. '

Mozamb works only with pistols after some update, so doesn't effect M1C. Personally I don't like pistols being A+ class weapons, I'd give them secondary role, but it's just my taste. I don't defend mozamb, I don't care about it as perk much, because its role could be replaced by macros. In theory, all aimed shots following after any shots won't have aim time, although I personally know that it's kinda laggy.

Also don't forget that Simian works only for 100% AP, which pushes you into lowers DPS+AimShotsPS and useless in any open fight when you follow your shots.

My reference about whiners are only about people who are seeing everything that enemy is using efficiently as OP, directly cryer and co. Don't take it personal.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:15:59 AM by free rerolls man »
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clochard

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2015, 11:01:40 AM »

I was indeed rewriting my message because i forgot the dks (so M1c should be 3rd longest range smallguns, still pretty decent).
(but you forgot bozar, gauss rifle and the new catapult sniper energy weapon)

And yes i did not mentioned effective range, especialy when head aiming, my bad.
I also want penalties ablied to the big gun snipers but in the current states there is already the 100% chance of shooting deployed gunners (and maybe a 10% criticalres malus i don't know).

Yes mozamb was changed to work only with pistol after the "great remington war".
Even with the full ap bar limitation, simian is still a very powerfull perk.

I was just stating that the problem wasn't related to weaponry being op, but a combination of perks and game mechanics who make them feel this way.

And don't worry, i didn't took it personnaly, it was a joke attempt.


« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:21:33 AM by clochard »
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S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2015, 11:11:51 AM »

TBH couldnt care less whether or not mozam goes anymore. I really only cared when it applied to ARs.
Good for you then. I still don't see why you want it applied to Assault Rifles...

Not even gonna waste time arguing with the bitch. + He can't even see my post :D

m1c is the second sg sniper with the highest range: 80 for HK and 75 for M1C, so i would not call it a good "middle range" gun.
Actually it has the 3rd most range. DKS > H&K MSG90 > M1C. And lol a "middle range" gun. Anything above 60+ hexes is beyond middle range. Middle range IMO would be like the milkor, minigun, gatling, etc.

Also, nothing prevent a good critical character to take simian+mozamb if he didn't took fast shot as a trait (even if he did).

Still with a tanky character with 95% crit strenght resist + metal armor, you are not immuned to knockouts.
Critical mechanics are completely fugged up. I don't think they even work. I can have 150+ Crit STR and get knocked out first shot.

If you don't take a mighty knockout in your face, you have high chances to be blinded so unable to fight and to see threat direction, and/or take a good armor bypass in your face.

So problems are not related to thooses guns (i stil think all snipers (in all categories) should have big penalties when shooting at close range) but to the headshot mechanics and perks that are a little too much powerfull, some drowbacks for thoose perks like the "grenadier" one could be nice.
I don't know, add ap cost to the shots or less hit chance or add armor class to the target.

It is not whining, headshots should indead be deadly, but it feel like playing fps game with a aimbot.
Yea you're pretty much blinded or take a hit for 80+ damage. Lowest crit roll I've seen was like 75 and highest was like 135 + KO + Disorient + blinded. Meanwhile DKS is a pea shooter doing like 65 HP on highest crit roll possible with blinded or crippled but also causes bleed.

Also yea I can agree that closer the target is with scoped, the harder it should be to hit them. At least this will force people to properly play snipers **cough** Naosanno **cough** by taking max range.

And don't worry, i didn't took it personnaly, it was a joke attempt.
Pretty sure he wants to take it personal with me. Almost everything I suggest he's against it. Calling me a whiner when the M1C obviously needs a change. 14mm can use a small damage reduction by like 10-20 (or however much it can be to cause 40 HP shots on someone armored, not a constant 60+)
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paragon

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2015, 02:16:42 PM »

> Lowest crit roll I've seen was like 75
GTFO noob.
Spoiler for Hiden:
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 04:03:57 PM by free rerolls man »
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S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2015, 05:04:57 PM »

omg the bitch can see my post  ;D

Of course he doesn't want his OP weapon to be nerfed. It's what 1/5 of current V-Tecs use.

Also what is the screen suppose to proof? Could of been anything. And no walls mods, john ban him :D
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clochard

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2015, 05:35:27 PM »

> Lowest crit roll I've seen was like 75
GTFO noob.
Spoiler for Hiden:

It was a lazer rifle shot. Don't be mean.
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paragon

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Re: Nerf M1C and 14mm
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2015, 06:19:02 PM »

well, I don't mind sralker being stupid.

your deductive ability isn't good enough to find out:
1. I just have made 1 shot
a) it's logged
b) you can see tracer
c) I'm lacking 1 ammo
d) action dynamics and character positions shows that nobody else could do that

2. I made 49 damage with M1C critical hit, which is logged. BTW my build has 10 IN + 10 LK, just in case

3. Yes, in the same time I got laser rifle shot, you can see tracer as well. Although it doesn't matter.

I can upload the vid of the fight, anyway. But it's a pleasure that sralker shows that he's isn't good enough in data analysis to talk about weapon balance.
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