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[Anza]

Yes I agree with that Myakot, aiming time is very hard to balance because melees have to be in melee range, even if there were no lag, it would be so hard to land a hit. I was thinking about a short aiming time but even so. Again I know I have no magic solution, that's why we discussed that point so many times  I love the aiming time system on guns, that an awesome mechanic compared to other fonlines, but it doesn't mix well with melee mechanics in term of balancing.

[Myakot]

Something ridiculous:

Example: (fake numbers)
Waki does 100 head-crit damage with a heavy-handed 10 st per swing. That swing costs 50AP.
Average char goes "below zero" in those 2 hits. Complaint: "2fast4u".
We can't add aiming time for melee, but we can multiply the amount of swings it takes to take one person down (decreasing the AP cost accordingly).

Main problem with that: Armours have both treshold and % reduction, which makes it impossible to "stay the same, but not that fast". It will either have to drastically increase DPS of waki (while decreasing insta-gib potential), or have the damage output reduced to manure level, while lowing AP cost (crippling weapon).

Just spouting non-sense here, move along.

[cirn0]

Aim time for melee is the time it takes for them to get to you.

There is no foreseeable way to add aim-time to melee in general while keeping it playable. But that doesn't mean I won't add aim-time to pro wrestling moves where you throw an ultra finisher with style to an incapacitated opponent.

[Anza]

but we can multiply the amount of swings it takes to take one person down (decreasing the AP cost accordingly).

Yes it's actually very good, it will make the full bar spent in like 2.5 sec or 3 ? If 3 hits instead of 2.
And in case the 2 first hits didn't land a KO, then everyone would have chance to at least shoot once. Melee sneaks stay strong on 1v1 but maybe not as OP as now ? And DPS stays the same basically

[BG Sexpert]

Game should be balanced around team fights and not sneakers killing random scavengers.

In big and small scale organized pvp waki sneakers never were OP.

Killing disorganized, lonely, inexperienced players? Sure, no problem. But there are 2 (SG + EW) with 15 fights posted about it as well.

A good sneaker is absolutely essential in large scale PvP. I was the sole sneaker for a big 3 way battle that Family won the other day in Junk Canyon. I was providing constant feedback on enemy locations as well as going on key flanks to pick off a player quick and get out. By the end I had a score of over 1300, the highest on the team (of which there were a few BG snipers and an avenger ape). Suff has a video of it. He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

There is a specific time where I KO a guy, then run off (no AP and sitting duck). Scientist comes back and revives the guy and asks "what got you?" I then killed them both. I then zoned around to go in from different grids undetected and cut off several solo reinforcements (that did not count for score mind you). I did the same to Lawyers in the fenced in area. I provided direct feedback of number of enemies, and attack simultaneously from behind while my allies struck the front. You are absolutely devastating as a flanker that timed the attacks when everyone is out of AP.

The sneaker does the work that nobody gives credit to, because they are unnoticed (as intended). You're never going to be the guy in the front lines; you're not supposed to be. You harass, and those harassments add up. If you KO a guy and he gets revived, well then he can't be revived again that battle.

[BG Sexpert]

>Those two hit kills, which you hate so much, cost 94 AP on a character made correctly. So an entire AP bar to kill someone. Thats not the only weapon that has that kind of damage potential, not even close.
The thing is you spent those 94AP in less than 2 sec, doing 2 aimed attacks with no aiming time, resulting in this instant kill with no possible retaliation feeling.

>In AoP it is easier than ANY other FOnline iteration to detect sneak.
You mean other FOnline which have MS ? Ok.

>Pretty much any time you have died to a sneaker is because, you were bad and your reflexes were too slow. [...] You have nobody to blame but yourself for dying to a sneaker.
Yet you say you can't land a hit on a target who has the time to switch to his secondary weapon (OP auto KD ssledge) ? I wonder who is the worst, the guy who has not the ability to react to a 1 sec time window to position his mouse on a sneak coming for him and make sure to KD/KO/cripple him before he reaches him (or have OP ssledge equipped ) or the guy who has initative as he enter the critical "being visible" zone whenever he wants and still can't land a hit on an enemy who has the time to switch weapon before LOL

So now let's talk about a realistic scenario. You see your target, you wait to have favorable position (advantage of being sneak), then go for him (from behind yeah of course but you have to anyway to avoid being seen - except watchtower). So what can happen ?
- He has SSledge, if he reacts fast enough he kicks your ass (hello Hellmoi)
- He has mirkor, grenade pistol, rocket launcher, if he reacts fast enough, you are being KD, but most of the time, he will also be KD, so you can either flee or fight (better flee as you wear leather)
- He has shotgun, melee weapon, if he reacts fast enough, he can pray to KD you before you reach him. When you hit him, you will be facing him but you have high chances of KO him so easy win against shogun, i'd say 50/50 against melee
- He has another ranged weapon, fast enough or not, he can't make you fall except lucky unaimed shot so it's pretty much win.
So yeah you have no 100% chances of winning, but it takes into account that your opponent reacts to the 1 sec time you need to reach him while he can see you (except watchtower).

Again you are sneak, so you choose your target, and when to strike. So saying it's a dangerous playstyle is just wrong. Also saying you need specific build to do that.. well of course you need a build, it doesn't make it harder to do that.. it's not like it's the only playstyle which needs a specific build The only thing is the low PER which takes some time to learn how to play with low sight range. 10 str 10 int 10 lck heavy handed don't require much skill to click when you create your char (you don't have the 1 sec time window to create your char)

I'll add the facts that playing waki sneak has cheap costs for good rewards (full loot with 10 str is not hard, yes if you loot you have to go back home and come back "oh no") and that you are not unsneak while you kill someone without being hit so you can kill people who don't stick together (while looting core for example)

I'll address your arguments in the order they were given.
1. You realize you have to RUN to within a few hexes of your opponent to hit them right? You don't simply click them and teleport atop them doing melee damage. That gives them plenty of time to switch weapons, or just shoot you.
2. If you are hit while in sneak, you are no longer in sneak, and all hits for 5 seconds are critical bypasses. A person doesn't need to worry about KD on you, because by default they are going to do more damage per hit than you. All of the damage of the waki comes from damage dealt while sneaking, from behind, while a person has a status effect like KD. By turning and shooting the sneaker, you eliminate pretty much all of his damage modifiers. It doesn't require a specific weapon, as any weapon getting guaranteed crit bypasses is going to do a lot of damage.
3. By specific build, it means that the build is designed entirely around the waki, and potentially the machete. You can't use any other weapon for that kind of damage. I've heard about people using scorpions, but a full sneak build won't have much, if any, SG skill. This is because all other sneak weapons blow. Using a ranged sneak weapon is pointless because after you strike you are "revealed" for a period of time (not really specified anywhere but supposedly variable to the weapon). While revealed anyone can see you and shoot you. If not hit you return to sneak for no penalty, but if hit you receive all of the malus of being caught in sneak: Every hit is a critical bypass. Essentially you trade 1 hit from a low damage sneak weapon, for a guaranteed critical bypass from a better damage weapon.
The reveal mechanic makes sense for melee weapons, someone fucking hits you in the head from behind, you sure as shit are going to see them when you turn around. But it makes absolutely no sense for ranged weapons (and should be removed IMO). If someone is using a silenced weapon, you aren't going to know where they are simply because they shot.

People keep saying "2 hits no retaliation" and what I'm saying is, that if a sneaker has already gotten to you, then you've already lost. That is 100% your fault, as you can see a sneaker before they attack FROM ANY ANGLE. You don't need to retaliate when you get THE FIRST HIT. If you get the first hit, you win almost guaranteed (I say almost because nothing is a guarantee in FOnline. 95% is as good as you get).

If you want to fix sneak, you need to make it a main attack type. Keep the weapon perks as they are but scale them to a 250 cap like all the others. Then improve the ranged sneak weapons, buff the waki slightly, and remove the reveal mechanic from sneak ranged weapons.

[Myakot]

cirn0
Next update better be the one adding manual throws... I specifically ask for mid-air "Siberian Blizzard" or at least an "Ultimate Atomic Buster".

[PusiteGA]

not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody

ye guilly suit is greate idea but like you sead prone to abuse, but proxy people are ashools yesterday we were (3bb) global hoping to ambush v techs in building (we dident know they will come 7 and 1 whit PA but anywey we got 2 kills and only i died, just to know BB ruls) back to point they used blusuit alt to clear buildings to see wher we are, this is alt abusing or proxy abusing anywey it sux and it shoud be BANED

[RazorRamon]

@paragon

Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)

You just compared armors of different levels, gj.
We all know that leather jacket suppose to be "equal" combat armor, and CLC to SCAmk3.
Also where's the weapon cost, hm? Don't see it in the list.

...wat



No weapon costs because most weapons are not buyable. And for crafting they more or less all cost the same: Some junk items and a somewhat rare crafting item.



@Anza:
 Im sorry if you took this as flaming, but you are presenting a very one-sided view on the whole argumentation and almost everything you are saying is based on 1on1 fights only. Yeah of course (old) sneak is powerful if you catch someone by surprise in a 1on1 fight in the core, but so is every other weapon. Yet you and a few others dont consider the many downsides of playing sneak in battles that actually matter (ZC):
- You will be somewhere behind the enemy, not only do you have to watch out for where the enemies are looking, you also have to watch out for any bursters on your own team. If youre somewhere in their large cone of burst fire, you will get desneaked with your pants down right between a dozen enemies.
- As soon as someone brings a defibrillator, your kills suddenly matter way less. Any player you backstab can then be revived again and if hes on the defib cooldown and knows a sneaker is around is gonna play much more careful.
- No score inflation and increased cap rewards by shooting back and forth between the firing lines. Only ranged weapons have this option, for melee be it sneak or not, they have to go all in and get the kill in one try or they die themselves.



@Naossano:

Do you actually think that PKS gunners only come to fight with an armor and a pack of ammos ? And we are those who have no idea about what we are talking about ?

Yeah, you definitely have no idea what you are talking about.
What i listed is the bare minimum. But for BOTH classes. Of course im not listing any stimpaks or healing items, but im also not listing the gigantic amounts of voodoo i drink during fights. Or my 8x Scope for increasing my viewrange. Or my secondary weapons (Oh wait, those were taken from me with the unfair weight limits on sneaking).



@ Everyone that went for the "muh scout" and "muh valuable information" arguments. NOBODY has fun playing a human ward like Myakot said. And if you do, stop playing AoP and apply for a position as a night guard somewhere. You can do the same boring shit there and also get paid in the process, wow!
Furthermore the need for players relaying information was greatly reduced. It is now globally announced where and how many people are in any given area of the core unless they own the map.
Scouting inside a building with closed doors is also impossible for a sneaker. If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).
The only scouting feature a pure sneaker brings to the table right now is to cross a grid as the first person and tell his squad whether or not the other side is safe.

[Teela]

not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody

ye guilly suit is greate idea but like you sead prone to abuse, but proxy people are ashools yesterday we were (3bb) global hoping to ambush v techs in building (we dident know they will come 7 and 1 whit PA but anywey we got 2 kills and only i died, just to know BB ruls) back to point they used blusuit alt to clear buildings to see wher we are, this is alt abusing or proxy abusing anywey it sux and it shoud be BANED

that was not an alt or a proxy but an idiot, fyi.

[paragon]

He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.

[paragon]

@ Everyone that went for the "muh scout" and "muh valuable information" arguments. NOBODY has fun playing a human ward like Myakot said. And if you do, stop playing AoP and apply for a position as a night guard somewhere. You can do the same boring shit there and also get paid in the process, wow!
Furthermore the need for players relaying information was greatly reduced. It is now globally announced where and how many people are in any given area of the core unless they own the map.
Scouting inside a building with closed doors is also impossible for a sneaker. If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).
The only scouting feature a pure sneaker brings to the table right now is to cross a grid as the first person and tell his squad whether or not the other side is safe.

I'm wrong then, did see "faction" word, sorry. Still my risk / reward argument is in strength.

I do enjoy playing scout, providing actual and important information on enemy, unfortunately, if I'll work as a guard, I doubt I'll do anything like this.

Now sneaker can perfectly backstab and attack weak chain of the parts, as (how do the fuck everyone found my youtube channel, you're not supposed to) in suff's video shown and sexmaster said.

Although again, I don't think waki nerf was necessary.

[BG Sexpert]

The new 9mm "fix" oh lawdy.

Spoiler for Hiden:

http://webmshare.com/X5065

He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.

it started with Franz Otto in the back, you will notice it took at least 4 hits to kill him. Then came Scientist, then Hellmri. Hellmri doesn't really count because he was last man left stranded behind a car. He is however most definitely a good player. Those weren't even the only ones I killed that fight, just the ones shown in the video. Suff, and retr died because Suff forgot to load his avenger. It happens.

[paragon]

Suff used avenger for the first time in his life. So no, it didn't happen before.
Also he doesn't appreciate posting this video in here and may consider making his channel private ):
Unfortunately, only 3 people on this video are organized: suff, rert and Hellmai, and Hellmai was the last one alive.
Although Franz Otto usually does the good job often enough, suff doesn't know why exactly he stayed behind, he doesn't use voice comms.

[naossano]

If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).

You need to play other characters than sneak.
You compare two entirelly different things.
Being instant-killed by ONE single guy you weren't aware was there has nothing to do with being focus fired by MULTIPLE opponements. Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving by healing/fleeing/throwing a smoke. Anyway, not the point. If you face one of them, you have chances to survive. And even if you can lose, you can actually fight.

Plus, about the cost, sure you take a voodoo. It doesn't remove anything the other character have to take to prepare themselves for any threat, while the sneak doesn't have to face any threat. If the enemy seems too strong, he wouldn't fight and wouldn't even being noticed. Which remove the need of many items.

That you might try to defend your character is understandable, but you seem to purposly forget many facts that were brought to you.

[RazorRamon]

Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving by healing/fleeing/throwing a smoke.

hahahaha holy shit


go test what damage you receive being fired at by 3 guys with guaranteed armor bypass

hint: only one minigun/pks is enough already to kill a sneaker faster than a sneaker can kill them from behind

[Myakot]

@BGS
Seriously, thanks for that webm... I, for some reason, laughed at that for 2 minutes straight.

@Nao
Ramon is right, armour bypass is an astonishingly strong malus, you can't really hope to stay alive after being revealed.
Also...

Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving

No, you don't. There is really no way to survive that, unless they use silenced uzis.

but you seem to purposly forget many facts that were brought to you.

And you seem to perfectly ignore everything he's been saying =\. I hope that this will end, some day.

p.s.

Spoiler for Hiden:

I just understood that this whole argument feels like TWD (the walking dead: the game) arguments... over Kenny-the-Supreme-Boat-Master-Estravaganza.

[FrankenStone]

The new 9mm "fix" oh lawdy.

Spoiler for Hiden:

http://webmshare.com/X5065

He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.

it started with Franz Otto in the back, you will notice it took at least 4 hits to kill him. Then came Scientist, then Hellmri. Hellmri doesn't really count because he was last man left stranded behind a car. He is however most definitely a good player. Those weren't even the only ones I killed that fight, just the ones shown in the video. Suff, and retr died because Suff forgot to load his avenger. It happens.

lel at no walls mod all item highlighting haha whos account is that ? suffs ? thx for making my name red btw nice recording btw

[BG Sexpert]

Suff used avenger for the first time in his life. So no, it didn't happen before.
Also he doesn't appreciate posting this video in here and may consider making his channel private ):
Unfortunately, only 3 people on this video are organized: suff, rert and Hellmai, and Hellmai was the last one alive.
Although Franz Otto usually does the good job often enough, suff doesn't know why exactly he stayed behind, he doesn't use voice comms.

You are misinterpreting a colloquial phrase in english. "it happens" means that we all make mistakes. It is excusable. I know suff is a good player.

[FrankenStone]

lel i was laughing my ass off at this comments at end hahahahahaha i thought hey its cool to hear some familiar voices and then this comments

https://de.proxfree.com/permalink.php?url=s54aaHA%2FaGsaD5vHs0QZLcUclS%2FcUxrnNZwEMCiA0I%2FvMp9mqU0x%2F955yGXGfdhGQd5Q%2B8zGuKW3xQJXolQ1vw%3D%3D&bit=1