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Author Topic: 21-01-2015 Changelog  (Read 32758 times)

Niamak

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2015, 05:55:46 AM »

From videos standpoint, Wakizashi kills are so rare, might as well nerf them.  :-*

But we know cirn will only nerf your favorite weapons.
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RazorRamon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2015, 08:28:22 AM »

The thing is you spent those 94AP in less than 2 sec, doing 2 aimed attacks with no aiming time, resulting in this instant kill with no possible retaliation feeling.
No, he spent those 94 AP in 2 seconds doing attacks and 5 seconds moving at distances where he gets 100% detected if the target changes his facing. Just because you in particular have a feeling theres no chance of retaliation doesn't mean it's not actually there. Chances are you/your squad just dont know how to position themselves and just scream sneak OP when they get caught.

Yet you say you can't land a hit on a target who has the time to switch to his secondary weapon (OP auto KD ssledge) ? I wonder who is the worst, the guy who has not the ability to react to a 1 sec time window to position his mouse on a sneak coming for him and make sure to KD/KO/cripple him before he reaches him (or have OP ssledge equipped :P) or the guy who has initative as he enter the critical "being visible" zone whenever he wants and still can't land a hit on an enemy who has the time to switch weapon before LOL

So now let's talk about a realistic scenario. You see your target, you wait to have favorable position (advantage of being sneak), then go for him (from behind yeah of course but you have to anyway to avoid being seen - except watchtower). So what can happen ?
- He has SSledge, if he reacts fast enough he kicks your ass (hello Hellmoi)
- He has mirkor, grenade pistol, rocket launcher, if he reacts fast enough, you are being KD, but most of the time, he will also be KD, so you can either flee or fight (better flee as you wear leather)
- He has shotgun, melee weapon, if he reacts fast enough, he can pray to KD you before you reach him. When you hit him, you will be facing him but you have high chances of KO him so easy win against shogun, i'd say 50/50 against melee
- He has another ranged weapon, fast enough or not, he can't make you fall except lucky unaimed shot so it's pretty much win.
So yeah you have no 100% chances of winning, but it takes into account that your opponent reacts to the 1 sec time you need to reach him while he can see you (except watchtower).
"Realistic scenarios" and you come up with 1vs1 situations only? If you want to balance (and ruin) the game around 1on1 situations then Street Fighter or Tekken is what you should be playing and not this.

So saying it's a dangerous playstyle is just wrong.
Leave the decision of that to the actual experienced players.

I'll add the facts that playing waki sneak has cheap costs for good rewards [...]
Facts? Cheap costs?

Let's take a look at the equipment prices if you buy them in base

PKS gunner:
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
6 ammo boxes - 300 caps

Sneak:
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)
Stealthboy - 180 caps
100 spare SEC - 55 caps

Im afraid you have no idea of what you are even talking about
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 08:44:50 AM by RazorRamon »
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Myakot

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2015, 08:56:51 AM »

Hooray somebody finally speaks sense. I was getting tired of




P.S.
Spoiler for Hiden:
I'm butthurt that Ramon didn't mention Killer Instinct ><, fuck Tekken.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:00:53 AM by Myakot »
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Teela

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2015, 09:04:52 AM »

Sneak OK as it is. Yes they're annoying, yes they're lethal. But two bursts and they explode.

Btw: Mortal Kombat II clearly is the best.
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RazorRamon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2015, 09:09:29 AM »

P.S.
I'm butthurt that Ramon didn't mention Killer Instinct ><, fuck Tekken.
I dont like Tekken either, just wanted some popular example.
SF is the only fighting game for me :)

Sneak OK as it is [...], yes they're lethal.

Not right now, you cant kill anyone (with some very low max HP exceptions) in two hits anymore.
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paragon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2015, 09:16:58 AM »

Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)

You just compared armors of different levels, gj.
We all know that leather jacket suppose to be "equal" combat armor, and CLC to SCAmk3.
Also where's the weapon cost, hm? Don't see it in the list.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:18:33 AM by paragon »
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Myakot

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2015, 09:23:36 AM »

I always wanted sneak to be:
Utility
Spoiler for Hiden:

NOT:
Spoiler for Hiden:
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Anza

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2015, 09:30:43 AM »

I like how people start to flam as soon as you say their stuff is OP. The thing is, sorry about that, I have a waki sneak myself and I leveled it to see if it was actually that OP and yes it was. Yes I am talking on 1v1 situations, you can't attack a squad by yourself ? Oh no ! And still if they are scavenging/splitting, you can kill one and leave, as you do not lose stealth again.

I already explained on previous posts how sneaks can be useful on ZC. We even discussed about melees in ZC. Here we were talking about spending 94ap in less than 2 sec. Your 5 sec are not realistic either because
- They don't turn -> you reach target
- They turn while you are coming to them and you still going : First you already click on attack so you don't have to do anything at that point. He on the other hand sees you, then has to target you with his weapon and then look at the scenarii above.
- They turn while you are coming so you just leave. As most of the time you attack (as a sneak) with buildings and other stuff, you can run away more like 3 times out of 4.

So again, as people don't like to read posts, as you can choose your fights, it is not a dangerous playstyle, as you can choose your fights, it is cheap for high rewards, as you can choose your fights, you can go when odds are good for you, as you can choose your fights you won't attack a full squad stick together (then u'll go say on forum that you are not OP coz u had to run away in front of a squad).

Even when you can't reach the high dam coz you hit with enemy facing you, you have high chances to land a KO, with 2 consecutive attacks with no aiming time, while a gun would just be able to do unaimed shots and pray. If you see a solo with ssledge or shotgun, then it's your choice to go against him. He can't kill you if you don't engage.

So I am afraid you are just defending a bit too much your character playstyle. I am not saying anyone can play waki sneak as if you rush every target in the open of course you will die. But as soon as you get some skills, and I don't mean hardcore gamer skills, it's easy peasy to get kills. Ok you'll get a lot of scavengers kills, but even ZC solo people.

EDIT : Myakot I do believe that sneak can have this purpose on AoP. The thing is most people wants to kill. During ZC, they can do a lot of decent jobs, but I don't think it's rewarding enough at the moment. I won't say sneak must be scouts only, but there should be some rewards to scouting as it is a very useful asset. The relic suggestion was also good for that, making sneaks more versatile as they could have some nice jobs to do on that.

SF is the only fighting game for me :)
The only thing i would say amen to  :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:38:37 AM by Anza »
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Ranger Arn

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2015, 09:38:51 AM »

imo sneak as skill is OK but COSTS of sneaking and weight mods to it are making it unplayable for no-caps-grinders. But mostly pains me sneak time reduced by weight. -> stealthboy drains too fast.
I understand that many people are arguing about PVP aspects of assasin ect. but why there are still nerfs to scout/scavenge aspects of that skill, that i cant understand.

So basically, cose I cant do anything about it, I will spamm again and again - pls remove weight mods from sneak... or even make stealthboy capacity larger like 7200 units. Anything just make it works. I dont care about whole "sneak assasin discussion" just want to have fun playing on sneak ect. without losing tons of caps/couldnt get out with loot cose stealthboy drains out.

I want to come back on aop and have fun but there are still things that makes game more grind and "rage-quit" than play-for-fun - I hope that more players see this in the same way.

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paragon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2015, 09:40:43 AM »

Myakot,
Player can see contours from smoke. Why? Is it replay / cheats / Fonline contours?

And yes, I'm agree with it. Sneakers have very important role on the battlefield: being invisible and scouting, there's no defence better than lack of enemy awareness of your position.
But what's the difference between sledgehammer death-lock and waki kill? (btw, waki had low chance to kill 10 CH with ~270+ HP even without drugs with 2 hits). Only some less time to detect in exchange to some longer time to kill. If there's a place for supersledge and other weapon, there's no waki problem.

As a fan of realism in the games, I'd say the sneaker's advantage is absence of footsteps / deathscreams / positional awareness / direct communication

Ranger Arn,
Combat looting is not approved by devs tactics, as far as I know.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:03:44 AM by paragon »
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Anza

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2015, 09:43:43 AM »

@Ranger Arn : The weight limit is boring at start, mostly because you can't have many choices of 2nd weapon. Then if you kill someone 1v1, it's easy to loot and leave without sneaking. If it's in a ZC situation, well we can assume your team won if you're looting. If not, you still have voodoo + sprint perk for example to run away to closest sewers.

One thing however, the carry weight limit has bothered more the whole sneak community than the waki sneak assassin.

@Parangon : Scouts are very good for getting the position of enemy, but also to get intel of armors if PA or not, and on weapons they are equiped with. They can also backstab on long range snipers during the fight and chase runaways.
And I agree about the ssledge thing, that's why if you remember the melee thread discussion, I was saying that auto-KD was the only thing that should be reworked for melees.
With the grenades cheaper and grenadier perk, I am wondering if throwing a grenade unsneak ? Coz it can be another powerful thing, as they have better position to throw smokes and all  :o
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:05:24 AM by Anza »
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naossano

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2015, 09:53:57 AM »


PKS gunner:
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
6 ammo boxes - 300 caps

Sneak:
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)
Stealthboy - 180 caps
100 spare SEC - 55 caps

Im afraid you have no idea of what you are even talking about

Do you actually think that PKS gunners only come to fight with an armor and a pack of ammos ? And we are those who have no idea about what we are talking about ?

Most PVP fighters have not only ammos, but a gun to use those ammos on. Many of them happen to also have a secondary weapon (or even a third one) in case the situation require a different approach. They are not hiding, they cannot choose to be seen or not. If the enemy approach, they have to face them or use other trick to outrun them. And that second weapon often require ammos to use it. Then you can add stimpacks or other healing items, defibrilator for fallen comrades, drugs, something to launch, in the utility slot. All of these elements should be used with cautions, as they depends on situations they will face, which they cannot predict in advance. If you check Suff's PVP video, you will see that the guy is even more crazy prepared than us, with a ton of equipement in his inventory. He have to take those as he never knows which situation he will face.

I had the opportunity to loot melee sneak multiple times, and most of the time, they only have their melee weapon, their armor, a stealth boy and a few ammo for the stealth boy. They rarelly even bother to take some stimpack. They choose their fights, which mean they don't have to take extra equipement to be prepared for the dangers they will face. If the enemy is too strong or too numerous, they just not engage. They wait for the right moment to deliver those two blows, loot and run. No need to heal, no need to switch weapon of varying range, no need to throw anything. They just deliver their blow when they can, or hide when they cannot. (if they are patient and skilled. That type of build is, of course, not meant for those who don't like to wait)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:57:31 AM by naossano »
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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2015, 10:01:33 AM »

Why is everyone bitching like little girls. It is fine as is, I never intend to play as waki sneaker but I like them as an enemy. You have to work around the game and make sacrifices, if you want to scout. Don't take anything with you except epc's and run away when trouble. If you can't do that then be a different class...
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paragon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2015, 10:05:00 AM »

> Why is everyone bitching like little girls

Most probably everyone wanna play the game they like. Why are you so rude?
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John Porno

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2015, 10:18:30 AM »

not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody
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Myakot

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2015, 10:19:32 AM »

@paragon -> replays have on\off X-ray built in.

@Nao & Anza

What are you suggesting?

1. Increasing gear cost -> wrong. More grinding is shit, and waki-sneak will still be "unbalanced".
2. Further nerf of weight limitations for sneak -> wrong. Nobody will want to play a "sight ward" (moba reference, pls no killerino). The multi-log problem will appear (people will need their intel).
3. Damage nerf -> already happened, crits were nerfed severely.
4. Increase AP cost -> Combined with new crit nerf = overkill.

What is it that you want so badly for us to understand?

p.s.
Spoiler for Hiden:

Quote
thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:22:13 AM by Myakot »
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Anza

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2015, 10:44:55 AM »

I suggested it already in previous threads.

- Sneak carry weight management is a good idea imo, but as I said, it nerfed the whole sneaks way more than the waki assassin. No need to add more nerf, but don't remove it.
- I don't ask for increase gear cost, I just state that it is cheap for high rewards.
- Damage nerf, yes it did happen. The problem again is in the no aiming time on those 2 hits aimed to head. Anyway even with dam nerf 10 str heavy handed add a lot of base dam that are amplified by weapon perks, so you'll still do more dam than other weapons who got nerfed too. But yes no need to add more dam nerf atm.
- Increase AP cost no, 2 hits with 1 bar is good, but there should be a noticeable aiming time, so if you don't make the enemy fall on the first hit, he can at least shoot you once or whatever.

The issue again is on that feeling of no-possible-retaliation. Because melees don't have noticeable aiming time compared to other weapons.

Of course it is hard to balance, but one other thing is that people want to be effective in every situations with their build. Each build should be strong in their best situations but not 100% win.

- Melees can complain they can't do shit in opened areas. But they are very strong in closed areas.
- Snipers can complain they can't do shit with enemies close to them because of long aiming time. But they are very strong in opened areas (in ZC situations)
- Sneak assassins can complain they can't kill in ZC, but they are very (!) strong in 1v1

What I mean is you should adapt and play as your build is targetted to. Saying you can't kill people in a squad is just wrong, sneak assassins purpose is to kill people on 1v1 and atm, it is not only strong, but mostly OP because of game mechanics that make melees have no aiming time. And remove that auto-KD on ssledge, make it XX%

So what do I suggest, add more aiming time to melees. Of course less than guns, and yes I know that it will be hard to balance. I don't have magic solution, but should I not say things are not balanced then ?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:46:35 AM by Anza »
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paragon

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2015, 10:50:46 AM »

Your gear cost should be an argument for a function of your success chance, but logarithmic, so over-priced gear do not give you any critical advantage.

It's called risk / reward correlation. If sneaker wants to be potentially as effective as other combat chars, he should consider spending the same amount of money for equipment.

Although it's not that trivial task to calculate "potential effectiveness" and actual item price.

With current core maps, close combat builds are more universal, because in most of the cases you can not ignore FoV blockers: you'll eventually have to cross building / tunnel / corner to get anywhere.
And if you have 5 snipers doing ZC, 2 CC character in the building can hold it if there are several doors for ever.
Can 2 snipers kill 5 CC rushing from 50 hexes? Not sure.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:02:16 AM by paragon »
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naossano

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2015, 11:27:51 AM »

With current core maps, close combat builds are more universal, because in most of the cases you can not ignore FoV blockers: you'll eventually have to cross building / tunnel / corner to get anywhere.

I you really want to outrun FoV blockers, it can be possible by taking a longer path. But those close quarter character have a chance to reach you if you don't have a suppression character supporting you or aren't more numerous. Plus, you might also need to scavenger/PVP which will lead you to close quarters.

Anyway, as mentioned multiple times, the issue is more about being done at the second you saw your opponement. You lost while not having the opportunity to fight. You can fairly lose a fight, but still have fun, if you get the feeling you actually had a chance to defend yourself. Being dead already is no fun.

But removing the certain death doesn't mean the character should be weak. He could have less chances to instant-death, but still some, he could have the ability to cripple limbs in two hits, so the opponement would have to make a quick decision while the sneaker reload its action points, he could poison the enemy or bleed, so his attack still have effect afterward, he can pinpoint the enemy for his teammates etc... Still be a threat, but give the opponement a change to retaliate.
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Myakot

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Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2015, 11:33:13 AM »

Aiming time on melee weapons... *ahem* will render melee weapons the most useless piece of shit there possibly is. :
If target moves, it becomes completely invincible to melee with aiming time, a CC character will swing at thin air each time he tries to attack (and waste ap doing that).
Making that aiming time lesser (for counter-measuring what I just said) will make that change unnoticeable, and therefore won't help.

With new crits you can't 2-hit proper chars anyway, so why aiming time? :/.

Also AFAIK auto-kd on SS is built-in-engine.
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