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Author Topic: Balance of melee/sneak  (Read 19640 times)

naossano

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Balance of melee/sneak
« on: November 16, 2014, 06:09:31 AM »

I believe this was mentioned a billion time each week by other players, but i didn't see any progress in that area.

Currently and since the beginning area, you could see troll characters that were able to instant kill other player with just knives.

Those sneak-melee are the only one that regularly instant-kill others, and they don't even have to use ammo/costly weapons. I won't remind what everyone has said that the sneak should be nerfed/removed.

I would bring some additions to the mix that could make things more fair.

- Instant-kill counter measures. There is no reasons only one character (the cheapest) should be allowed to instant kill. On the other hand, one of the most intestersting aspect of AOP is that there is almost no instant kill. Contrary to Fonline and other crappy servers, here fights lenght longers and it should stay that way. You are now able to adapt, use tactics instead of just shoot first. This fit well with the AOP big map. You don't want to go through 5-6 maps to comeback on the battlefield. You should have chances to fight back. It would be fair to be unable to make more than 80% of the player maximum health (after all other calculation) on a single attack). Even if you hurt him, you should need at least two attack to kill him.

- Melee weapons should deteriorate much faster. Contrary to other weapons, you need to make the weapon in contact with the organic matter in order to make it usefull. It shouldn't take too much attack before the weapon show sign of being weakened, not sharp enough, or maybe heavy, adding more chance of failures & critical faillures. It wouldn't break, but might hurt the owner or be dropped.

- Sneak should use a more layered system of enemies awareness. Let's say you used sneak to kill a guy. You have to wait two minutes before sneaking again, as enemies are in alert mode, then you will have a 50% malus in sneaking for three minutes, as enemies are in aware mode. Then, after five minutes, you would have no more sneaking malus. If there isn't any player of opposing faction, or red (hostiles) critters, in the current map, you would be able to skip alert/aware mode and re-sneak immediately.

That way, those chars would still be powerfull, but with enought flaws to balance it a bit.
Otherwise, let's just all create melee sneak and play easy mode...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 06:11:27 AM by naossano »
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Niamak

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 06:41:15 AM »

In small scale fight, melee sneaker are very strong but in large scale they are USELESS.

I understand how you feel but what about pros and cons (only nerf ?). How would you make them useful in large scale fight if you want to nerf their small scale effectiveness.

If you dont believe me, you can just watch old ZC videos how well melee sneakers perform...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 06:48:03 AM by Niamak »
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mAdman

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 06:58:48 AM »

I like how the melee damage has been metered out, buuuuut, when taken to extremes (like ST10, heavy handed, 10 luck, silent death etc) like powergamers always will if allowed to do so, the snowballing effect of melee does get quite ridiculous (i.e. 700 damage crits).

It would be awesome if they could buff out these extremes in melee, keeping the damage constant and high, but not ridiculous.
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Myakot

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 08:23:51 AM »

TS is wrong on so many levels it just hurts. :)
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S1mancoder

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 08:59:01 AM »

I can remember clearly about 5 death due melee sneakers, and every time it was two hits kills ~(250+350).
And I cant remember any insta kills. I think better ask someone like Ramon or REDRUM about how often they can kill player in armor and at full HP with 1 strike.
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mAdman

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2014, 09:39:13 AM »

I would say not often, but most of the time one good head crit is enough to KO or KD with plenty of AP left over for a second (and I'd say 90% of the time) fatal hit.

Back of the head by Ramon, forgetaboutit, you're dead mate.
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naossano

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2014, 12:23:19 PM »

Most of the time, if not all the time, the first hit bring your life into the negative numbers, which means that you can't do a thing, you are dead. Then, when you finally see the guy, you can't do a thing as you are already dead when they hit you with the 300-700 hit points attack.

Basically, you are done in one click, before even being aware there is a guy, and that guy have the cheapest weapon in game. I cannot call it PVP.

Beside that, many players consider sneak shouldn't be used for offense, but for information gathering. I think it could be used to kill, but not as an unreachable grim reaper. You should have a few sec to react, even if unwisely and he should be more cautious before killing, if it cost the ability to re-sneak, or a malus, for a few minutes.
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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2014, 09:10:35 PM »

Noooo don't nerf melee :/
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mAdman

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2014, 11:15:57 PM »

Most of the time, if not all the time, the first hit bring your life into the negative numbers, which means that you can't do a thing, you are dead. Then, when you finally see the guy, you can't do a thing as you are already dead when they hit you with the 300-700 hit points attack.

Basically, you are done in one click, before even being aware there is a guy, and that guy have the cheapest weapon in game. I cannot call it PVP.

Beside that, many players consider sneak shouldn't be used for offense, but for information gathering. I think it could be used to kill, but not as an unreachable grim reaper. You should have a few sec to react, even if unwisely and he should be more cautious before killing, if it cost the ability to re-sneak, or a malus, for a few minutes.

When you consider how low strength the other sneak weapons are, and their relatively short range, the wakazashi puts them all to shame by a large margin, I would say very worth the risk of closing the few extra hexes to deal such insane damage.

It is definitely the silent death multiplier causing this specifically in this case, considering the wakazashi is the only weapon with this perk, it could be altered to suit (I.E. increase the base damage by a certain amount and reduce the silent death bonus to +50% damage or somesuch. Double damage, even circumstantially doubled damage has to be the strongest weapon perk in the game by far).
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Niamak

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 02:52:20 AM »

That way, those chars would still be powerfull, but with enought flaws to balance it a bit.
Otherwise, let's just all create melee sneak and play easy mode...

Wakizashi cons : you have to be 1hex and behind your target, 10 CH character can tank you,  you have to sneak (armor bypass, can't carry more than 10 kg, use jacket, stick to walls, perception penalty, yeah i know sneaking has no downside right...), useless in ZC, useless in large scale, its a melee weapon so ghost hit happens more often.

Devs always said AoP is about group play.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 02:58:35 AM by Niamak »
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naossano

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 04:02:49 AM »

(armor bypass, can't carry more than 10 kg, use jacket, stick to walls, perception penalty, yeah i know sneaking has no downside right...)

It is a sneak, come one. Do you expect him to have power armor and bursting rocket launcher ? His sneaking protect him far more than any armor. And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor. The other penalties also exist in other servers. But this is the only server in which there is only one character that instant kill, a character that not only instant kill, but is not seen and is one of the cheapest. That should be balanced.
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Niamak

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 04:16:53 AM »

Do you expect him to have power armor and bursting rocket launcher ?

Meh, im not talking about realism, only downsides. The fact is there are downsides to wakizashi.

Quote
His sneaking protect him far more than any armor.

Armor bypass, jacket ( paper wall , low dr/dt ), i also forgot to add you can desneak with burst hex shooting but nobody uses it since its a new mechanic to AoP

Quote
And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor.

Every armor have almost the same price. combat leather coat = combat armor mkIII etc..

Don't get me wrong, I hate 1hexing and instant kill. I don't know just adding more downsides, cons, nerfs to an already extensive list, doesn't sound reasonnable. Wakizashi still useless in ZC :(
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 04:23:00 AM by Niamak »
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paragon

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 04:45:20 AM »

> Do you expect him to have power armor

We've met at least 2 characters with wakizashi in PA, but I believe there are more.

> And he doesn't have to pay/craft for a better armor.

There's no better Tier2 armor than a coat (which is not used due to its weight by sneaks, emh). Leather jacket suppose to be the same value armor as combat armor (although I think that SCA is better than CA in any case).

> The other penalties also exist in other servers. But this is the only server in which there is only one character that instant kill, a character that not only instant kill, but is not seen and is one of the cheapest.

He can't carry more than 10 kg if he wants to be sneaked. He needs to use and recharge stealthboy (which is heavy, I guess, if you want to sneak for a long time).

> Wakizashi still useless in ZC :(

No, it's not. It's one of the best support weapons which doesn't require primary skill (which seems the most questionably mechanics for me in here), to use in close combat for many characters.
It can be used directly by sneakers who enters the combat after the first AP spent and kill high value target(s) - very effective and terrifying, if you don't create danger - nobody's shooting you until your work is done. And it's often could be a deciding kill for the combat.


As for team gameplay I don't consider wakizashi to be any OP, but for sure effective weapon in certain amount of situations with proper use. Comparing to the flamer, mk2 it's almost the same approach to be effective, which is not always working.

As I said, questionable sides for waki is sneak skill as weapon skill and lack of deterioration
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 04:59:49 AM by paragon »
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Anza

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2014, 05:26:28 AM »

Quote
His sneaking protect him far more than any armor.
Armor bypass, jacket ( paper wall , low dr/dt ), i also forgot to add you can desneak with burst hex shooting but nobody uses it since its a new mechanic to AoP

You can't talk about armor bypass and low dr/dt when you 2-shot someone without any chance of retaliation. Moreover there is also the sprint perk that allows you to run into safe area after you dumped your PA killing someone. Burst hex shooting to destealth is very situational, you can't expect people to randomly shoot everytime but yes on some occasions it is usable to detect a sneak. Is it enough ?

Again we're talking about 1v1 situations. Sneakers have the ability to choose fights, to kill very fast, to run away at insane speed after that, or even to chase anyone who is trying to flee. The ability to choose fights also allow them to use drugs/food at maximum efficiency, while their targets could have drugs down or not taken yet.

In ZC, they can scout areas, while in sneak mode they dont even trigger timer if i'm not mistaken, so you don't know when they are in your zone, but they know while someone is in. They can use guns to support in fights, again Sprint makes them quite efficient in a lot of situations... People can carry ammo for them so they can scout all day long. And they can flee more easily if fight is lost. What do you mean Sneakers are useless in ZC ? They can't tank in front line ? They are not the only ones you know ? They have to switch to guns, making them useless in this situation ? Well snipers have to switch to other guns when enemies are closing distance, EW have to switch weapon too when they see Tesla Armor etc.. It is not as if Sneak Melee were the only ones who have to adapt to enemies... And I mean on ZC only
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Niamak

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2014, 05:52:01 AM »

Quote
In ZC, they can scout areas, while in sneak mode they dont even trigger timer if i'm not mistaken, so you don't know when they are in your zone, but they know while someone is in. They can use guns to support in fights,

There are so many misconceptions in this thread. I don't know where to start. Instant kill Wakizashi require powerbuild (heavy handed, etc...) so obviously they can't scout effectively, use guns effectively, etc etc ...

Quote
People can carry ammo for them so they can scout all day long.

comon lets be serious...

Quote
What do you mean Sneakers are useless in ZC ?

I don't want to quote myself but I said wakizashi and melee sneakers.

Quote
Sneak Melee were the only ones who have to adapt to enemies...

Carry weight penalty doesn't allow them to adapt to every situation.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 05:58:26 AM by Niamak »
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paragon

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 05:57:41 AM »

Serious, you guys mix wakizashi and sneakers discussing them both and arguing if the apple green or banana yellow.
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Anza

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 06:01:34 AM »

Why can't they scout ? Their job is to locate enemies they don't need sniper vision for that. 200 sneak I believe they have it. They can't use gun ? Yeah they can't use mirkor to make some KB you're right they need the bonus dam perks on the weapon. And lots of ZC happen in buildings anyway, so sledge etc

And what's the problem with people carrying SB ammo for them ? I meant while sneaker runs out of ammo, one the squad drops him some so he can refill SB

The carry is irrelevant as well, I mean if the sneak is a loner yes of course but we are talking about ZC situations where he can be dropped other stuff before engaging (not 100% of time but most times)

@Parangon : I'm mostly answering to the "Sneaks have many cons", making the assumption it requires a lot of skill to play sneakers (to stay alive on 1v1..) and to the fact that they are useless in ZC, which again i don't agree at all, but if the meaning was that they can't 2-shot a sniper with his friends around without dying, well again he's not the only one hehe
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:21:52 AM by Anza »
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paragon

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2014, 06:14:46 AM »

Just an example of being useless:
Happy, 2.5 kills, 1 ressurect during combat, tanking damage.
Compare it to bodies on right top.
Not his best battle though
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.msg16337#msg16337

BTW, same guy in PA.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:39:22 AM by paragon »
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Niamak

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 06:38:09 AM »

Just an example of being useless:
Happy, 2.5 kills, 1 ressurect during combat, tanking damage. (compare it to bodies on right top)
Not his best battle though
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.msg16337#msg16337

Maybe I was a little harsh using the word "useless". In the video, Happy managed to kill Atac after 4 hits within ~10sec then killed Thomas with ~200HP in 2 hits. Nice damage, I guess... I shouldn't worry about details.  :-*

ps: then he hit suff for almost no damage cuz leadership lel
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:40:31 AM by Niamak »
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paragon

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Re: Balance of melee/sneak
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2014, 06:41:34 AM »

I've added 1 more video after that.
This time he attacked from behind... Suff was pretty surprised to die first in battle, he usually dies last.
What if experienced waki attacks from behind every hit?
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