FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

Game improvements => The Lobby => Topic started by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 23, 2016, 01:27:37 AM

Title: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 23, 2016, 01:27:37 AM
Something needs to be changed. Let's hear what guys think.

Currently IMO


I'd much rather have sneakers desneaking enemy sneakers so team can kill and harassing battle characters with wpn drops or something but having the ability to kill someone with 320 HP in less the 4 seconds just by spamming is...a lil too much for a sneaker. Not to mention waki seems to have been reverted back to its OP state with 200+ criticals and killing players in 2 hits...don't make this like FOnline 2 where sneakers are hitting people for 400+

I'm taking info this from me playing and stuff I recorded from GM view.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: cirn0 on March 23, 2016, 01:55:04 AM
I let ramon touch the waki proto file so he can enjoy it one last time before removal on wipe.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 23, 2016, 02:20:50 AM
I let ramon touch the waki proto file so he can enjoy it one last time before removal on wipe.

I demand mosins that make the player yell "ZA STALLIINNAA" or the other phrase while glow red :V
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 23, 2016, 02:42:14 AM
when my machete buff ? ripper cud use 0 ap attacks also ...
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Niamak on March 23, 2016, 05:29:55 AM
I'm pretty sure a sneaker with needler pistol cannot kill a 320hp character with 1 full AP bar. So 320hp in less than 4 seconds seems kind of strange. I would be interested to see the part you recorded from GM view that shows this situation because I could be wrong.

I'm not saying that colt and needler aren't kind of strong.  ::)
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: clochard on March 23, 2016, 08:47:46 AM
you can easily kill a ko battle player with colt with full ap bar i agree, not with needler (2 sneaks working together, yes maybe if no one react).

but i agree that pistols with small callibers should be disarm oriented (not the 14mm or the desert eagle)

i even want no aim time for all the pistols (exept 14mm and desert eagle): but less ko chances in counter part.

waki (not as strong as before) should be very dangerous vs sniper nests who are looking at the other side of the map. (waki don't do critical death so revive is still possible)

get rid of the 5*finisher perk on colt, joke is over.



 
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Count Matthew on March 23, 2016, 10:19:56 AM
Colt in its current form is too much. Remove some of the finishers.

It makes shotguns redundant in almost all situations.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: antohha on March 23, 2016, 10:40:20 AM
Oh cmon! Shotguns still are much better at shooting teamate's backs.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 23, 2016, 10:48:15 AM
Needler with AP ammo is indeed stronk
The bleed ammo is fair: Enemy can still react and kill the sneaker and bandage afterwards. But AP ammo is instakill


for waki 2 hit kills are balanced dont try to get something nerfed that you never played yourself stalker

here is the long list of conditions that have to be met to get waki 2 hit kills:
- have to be sneaking
- have to be behind
- if the enemy moves last second, you might hit him from the front/sides for low damage
- both hits have to hit (90.25% chance)
- both hits have to crit (chance for that can be quite low vs high luck enemy)
- none of the hits can be a ghost hit (AP substracted but no attack made)

Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: BG Sexpert on March 23, 2016, 05:48:46 PM
People are quick to cry sneak OP for 2 real reasons:
1. They feel that sneak can attack them without recourse
2. They feel that sneak attacks are too powerful

The first is objectively wrong because sneak weapons have a range shorter than the range their are visible from (on characters with reasonable PE). Sneak doesn't make the attacker invisible until attacking, it reduces the range from which they can be seen. What this does is reduce the reaction time of the defender. Is that OP? Well lets look at the cost, guaranteed 100% (before Armor efficiency) critical bypasses on hits during and immediately after sneaking. That seems more than fair to me.

The second had some merit with the WAKI, but only situationally. The WAKI did OP damage when the enemy was hit in the back from a sneaking enemy within the 2hex WAKI range. The sneaker is completely vulnerable from X-Hex where they can be seen to 2hex where they can finally attack. You know how you countered a sneak WAKI? You closed doors behind you. You know what you did if the sneak WAKI was already inside? You stood with your back to the wall. I have never once died to a sneak WAKI player, because I PLAYED SNEAK WAKI a lot. Its not that I never ran into them, I just knew how to defend myself.

That brings to point the final statement: Can you claim something is OP and needing a nerf without actually understanding its mechanics?

I think not. As far as sneak rippers? I ran into a sneak ripper while looting. He hit me while I was looting from a body. You know how I countered him? I moved and bursted him. My damage was greater than his because every attack was a crit bypass. If being outplayed is OP, then I don't think there will ever be a game that is fair to you.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 23, 2016, 06:19:33 PM
People are quick to cry sneak OP for 2 real reasons:
1. They feel that sneak can attack them without recourse
2. They feel that sneak attacks are too powerful

The first is objectively wrong because sneak weapons have a range shorter than the range their are visible from (on characters with reasonable PE). Sneak doesn't make the attacker invisible until attacking, it reduces the range from which they can be seen. What this does is reduce the reaction time of the defender. Is that OP? Well lets look at the cost, guaranteed 100% (before Armor efficiency) critical bypasses on hits during and immediately after sneaking. That seems more than fair to me.

The second had some merit with the WAKI, but only situationally. The WAKI did OP damage when the enemy was hit in the back from a sneaking enemy within the 2hex WAKI range. The sneaker is completely vulnerable from X-Hex where they can be seen to 2hex where they can finally attack. You know how you countered a sneak WAKI? You closed doors behind you. You know what you did if the sneak WAKI was already inside? You stood with your back to the wall. I have never once died to a sneak WAKI player, because I PLAYED SNEAK WAKI a lot. Its not that I never ran into them, I just knew how to defend myself.

That brings to point the final statement: Can you claim something is OP and needing a nerf without actually understanding its mechanics?

I think not. As far as sneak rippers? I ran into a sneak ripper while looting. He hit me while I was looting from a body. You know how I countered him? I moved and bursted him. My damage was greater than his because every attack was a crit bypass. If being outplayed is OP, then I don't think there will ever be a game that is fair to you.

looks like u didnt played the server much ... guaranteed bypass on sneak was removed long time ago , and spotting formula was changed also , i dont know whats reasonable PE but its not easy to spot them with mid PE like 5 my guess is you need 10 and i dont know if that is some regular amount of perception ... needler got almost no aimtime with aimed shots , requires only 200 sneak skill in comparison to 250 which grands u all wepaon perks with a gifted character that has 7 more special points than regular chars which use all 5 weapon perks ... what does a sneaker risk ? a crafted needler gun , 30 sec , some looted needles from police department , one stim and one leathercoat ... if you would have played this server regulary than u would know whats wrong ... i dont like the colt also but the difference is that u can atleast see the coltuser from some distance  i believe from what i have seen recently that a whole squad which consist only out of sneaks wud destroy anything at the moment thanks to the sneak contesting thing also , it doesnt take already long to kill a single guy with 2 sneaks just imagine what 6 sneaks cud do while they are mostly invisible to the enemy team ( i mean u seen the peakpreview already on the omg pvp video and that was just 4 sneaks wiping out a whole regular squad ) , gg and good analysis ...

p.s. its not the players who play the game like they want , its the mechanics which dictate how to play ...  sneak cant take much stuff already by mechanics so its true that he risks nothing in the end but gain in the best case everything ... range goes from leatherjacket to spa with many meds and other stuff regular combat chars take because the mechanic is made like that and they are allowed to carry it. so what happens is that someone with almost empty inventory , very cheap equipment is capapble of killing anything ? something is wrong there in my opinion.

if the needler would be t3 and some dedicated not so cheap armor does grand him no auto bypasses then i wouldnt care but at the moment its more than broken ... in terms of gamebalance which is made by mechanics.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 23, 2016, 06:26:50 PM
looks like u didnt played the server much ... guaranteed bypass on sneak was removed long time ago , and spotting formula was changed also , i dont know whats reasonable PE but its not easy to spot them with mid PE like 5 my guess is you need 10 and i dont know if that is some regular amount of perception ... needler got almost no aimtime with aimed shots , requires only 200 sneak skill in comparison to 250 which grands u all wepaon perks with a gifted character that has 7 more special points than regular chars which use all 5 weapon perks ...

looks like u didnt played the server much ... sneak needs 250 skill as well and cant run gifted

what does a sneaker risk ? a crafted needler gun , 30 sec , some looted needles from police department , one stim and one leathercoat ... if you would have played this server regulary than u would know whats wrong

Risks same thing everyone else is risking. Leather coat and combat armors are same price
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 23, 2016, 06:37:21 PM
looks like u didnt played the server much ... guaranteed bypass on sneak was removed long time ago , and spotting formula was changed also , i dont know whats reasonable PE but its not easy to spot them with mid PE like 5 my guess is you need 10 and i dont know if that is some regular amount of perception ... needler got almost no aimtime with aimed shots , requires only 200 sneak skill in comparison to 250 which grands u all wepaon perks with a gifted character that has 7 more special points than regular chars which use all 5 weapon perks ...

looks like u didnt played the server much ... sneak needs 250 skill as well and cant run gifted

what does a sneaker risk ? a crafted needler gun , 30 sec , some looted needles from police department , one stim and one leathercoat ... if you would have played this server regulary than u would know whats wrong

Risks same thing everyone else is risking. Leather coat and combat armors are same price

wtf u talking about , sneak is capped at 200 because its secondary skill and a leather coat inst the same as any other armor since the price and time u need to invest to get is , is off OFF BOI not comparable ...

now get the fuck out of here ... sneak average CW = what ? 12 kg max or 14 in comparison to 100+ CW regular chars use , i dont have to look inton their invetorys even to see what is profit and what s not just by checking the numbers with simple mathskill... pls dont try to argue here about riskes or anything else

the only thing a sneaker risk is 1/10 of value in comparison to other chars while hes able to kill any char ... but meh , fuck balance , fuck the game who cares anyway , soon ww2 dlc. ich bin flugscheibenkonstrukteur!
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 23, 2016, 07:21:55 PM
Courier spits fire (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png) (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png) (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png)

And everything he said is what I would have said...Will say my 300000k cents when I come back home

BTW who the hell is BG sexpert ingame?
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Teela on March 23, 2016, 07:39:55 PM
Courier spits fire (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png) (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png) (http://pix.iemoji.com/sams33/0686.png)

And everything he said is what I would have said...Will say my 300000k cents when I come back home

BTW who the hell is BG sexpert ingame?

Its this time of the year!!!!!!!
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-02/enhanced/webdr08/15/12/enhanced-25136-1392483619-12.jpg)
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: cirn0 on March 23, 2016, 08:48:38 PM
Thanks teela.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 23, 2016, 08:59:21 PM
if you get killed with 100 weight loadout vs 12 weight maybe youre just shit at videogames

for example you couldve thrown down a smoke and rippered in it in the legendary 4 snek vs pa battle in GE



but instead you chose to sit in one spot and chain use stimpaks
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
if you get killed with 100 weight loadout vs 12 weight maybe youre just shit at videogames

for example you couldve thrown down a smoke and rippered in it in the legendary 4 snek vs pa battle in GE

i can throw ashies in trashbin also and save precious lifetime



but instead you chose to sit in one spot and chain use stimpaks
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on March 23, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
Daammnnn Teela, back at it again with the white peennissesss  :D
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Count Matthew on March 23, 2016, 11:21:25 PM
Daammnnn Teela, back at it again with the white peennissesss  :D

lol - he can't help himself.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Niamak on March 24, 2016, 03:42:32 AM
I find it funny that everyone was amazed by the performance of sneakers in last video when they could have done a better job if they rolled combat character with any kind of pistol (maybe colt).

There was no sneaking around, they didn't hide from enemy sight range, they just flanked around from outside and fought inside a building within sneak detection range.

They only performed well because they went in last, made a line of fire, shot the same target and enemy came one by one. Pretty basic FOnline.

Same could be said for waki, machete can do 200 dmg per hit (direct dmg + bleed) and doesn't require to be behind the target.

But yeah, let's hate sneaker. #nerfsneak
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: artaman on March 24, 2016, 09:59:53 AM
I find it funny that everyone was amazed by the performance of sneakers in last video when they could have done a better job if they rolled combat character with any kind of pistol (maybe colt).

There was no sneaking around, they didn't hide from enemy sight range, they just flanked around from outside and fought inside a building within sneak detection range.

They only performed well because they went in last, made a line of fire, shot the same target and enemy came one by one. Pretty basic FOnline.

Same could be said for waki, machete can do 200 dmg per hit (direct dmg + bleed) and doesn't require to be behind the target.

But yeah, let's hate sneaker. #nerfsneak

i am of agree with the Niamak and with Happy Ghost Man. in conjunction with it must be remembered that out cry is from just 2 (two) hot head participants of the resulting only 1 (one) battle scrimmage where situation personal loss occurred and must be perceived as a rabble-rouser troublemaker goblin response!
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 12:20:04 PM
i dont know where u see focus fire , needler is op against regular combat chars , look on the dmg 50 per hit no aimtime ko and whatever criteffects ... non spa guys died like flees. bonus speed from minus ap is also bullshit you cant even get them with melee weapon then.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Niamak on March 24, 2016, 01:48:15 PM
i dont know where u see focus fire , needler is op against regular combat chars , look on the dmg 50 per hit no aimtime ko and whatever criteffects ... non spa guys died like flees. bonus speed from minus ap is also bullshit you cant even get them with melee weapon then.

(http://i.imgur.com/BGQzx7K.jpg)
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 02:37:49 PM
your photoshop skills terible and if u look close u see many lines arent alligned with direction the player looks at so gg and better ragequit
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: cirn0 on March 24, 2016, 02:57:17 PM
Just going to disect the scenario by miliseconds with handy dandy facts of combat log!

2:26:56: Teela Hits Dirty Zen For 62
2:27:08: Teela Hits Dirty Zen For 61
2:27:10: Ramon Hits Dirty Zen For 11
2:27:10: Ramon Hits Dirty Zen For 75
2:27:18: Ramon Hits Dirty Zen For 22
2:27:20: Teela Hits Dirty Zen For 37
2:27:26: Ramon Hits Dirty Zen For 41
2:27:26: clochard Hits Dirty Zen For 46
2:27:34: Ramon Hits Dirty Zen For 52
2:27:34: clochard Hits Dirty Zen For 42
2:27:34: Teela Hits Dirty Zen For 67
2:27:34: Teela Kills Dirty Zen

Collect fire from Teela, Ramon, and Clochard on Dirty Zen. Killed in 38 seconds in game time (1.9s realtime).

2:28:04: Data Hits Orshabaal For 44
2:28:04: Data Cripples Orshabaal
2:28:05: Orshabaal Hits Teela For 13
2:28:05: Orshabaal Hits Teela For 19
2:28:09: clochard Hits Orshabaal For 35
2:28:13: Data Hits Orshabaal For 69
2:28:13: Data Cripples Orshabaal
2:28:17: clochard Hits Orshabaal For 31
2:28:21: Data Hits Orshabaal For 62
2:28:21: Data Cripples Orshabaal
2:28:24: sylvicius Hits Orshabaal For 34
2:28:25: clochard Hits Orshabaal For 31
2:28:26: Hawk_ Hits MsSniper For 73
2:28:29: Data Hits Orshabaal For 58
2:28:29: Data Cripples Orshabaal
2:28:33: sylvicius Hits Orshabaal For 94
2:28:33: sylvicius Cripples Orshabaal
2:28:33: clochard Hits Orshabaal For 50
2:28:33: clochard Kills Orshabaal

Collect fire from Data, slyvicius, and Clochard on Orshabaal. Killed in 18 seconds in game time (0.9s).

2:28:38: Data Hits Hawk_ For 26
2:28:39: Hawk_ Hits MsSniper For 113
2:28:39: Hawk_ Kills MsSniper
2:28:42: Vulture Hits Hawk_ For 43
2:28:42: Vulture Cripples Hawk_
2:28:55: Komrade Hits Teela For 74
2:28:55: Komrade Cripples Teela
2:29:03: Vulture Hits Hawk_ For 53
2:29:04: sylvicius Hits Hawk_ For 56
2:29:11: Vulture Hits Hawk_ For 39
2:29:11: Vulture Cripples Hawk_
2:29:26: Data Hits Hawk_ For 31
2:29:26: Data Cripples Hawk_
2:29:26: Data Kills Hawk_

Collect fire from Data, slyvicius, and Vulture on Hawk_ . Killed in 48 seconds in game time (2.4s).

2:29:56: Teela Hits Komrade For 56
2:30:07: Data Hits Cpt Courier For 4
2:30:11: Cpt Courier Hits Teela For 96
2:30:15: Data Hits Cpt Courier For 9
2:30:24: Ramon Hits Cpt Courier For 10
2:30:32: Ramon Hits Cpt Courier For 12
2:30:41: Ramon Hits Cpt Courier For 12
2:31:13: Data Hits Cpt Courier For 12

First Data and Ramon wastes shots on CptCourier for 65 seconds in game ( 3.25s )

2:31:41: Data Hits Komrade For 31
2:32:04: Teela Hits Komrade For 57
2:32:25: Ara Bro Hits Teela For 129
2:32:29: Komrade Hits Data For 100
2:33:13: Cpt Courier Hits Teela For 175
2:33:13: Cpt Courier Cripples Teela
2:33:32: Ara Bro Hits Teela For 136
2:33:32: Ara Bro Kills Teela
2:33:42: Vulture Hits Komrade For 39
2:33:50: Vulture Hits Komrade For 29
2:33:58: Vulture Hits Komrade For 27
2:33:58: Vulture Cripples Komrade
2:34:06: Vulture Hits Komrade For 30
2:34:16: Vulture Hits Komrade For 45
2:34:16: Vulture Cripples Komrade
2:34:29: Komrade Hits Vulture For 26
2:34:29: Komrade Hits Vulture For 92
2:34:31: Cpt Courier Hits Data For 220
2:34:31: Cpt Courier Cripples Data
2:34:34: Ramon Hits Komrade For 120
2:34:42: Ramon Hits Komrade For 69
2:34:49: Cpt Courier Hits Data For 164
2:34:50: Ramon Hits Komrade For 99
2:34:50: Ramon Cripples Komrade
2:34:58: Ramon Hits Komrade For 127
2:34:58: Ramon Kills Komrade

Collect fire from Teela, Vulture, Ramon on Komrade. Killed in 3 minutes and 17 seconds in game time (6.8s).

2:36:01: sylvicius Hits Ara Bro For 68
2:36:09: sylvicius Hits Ara Bro For 55
2:36:09: sylvicius Cripples Ara Bro
2:36:17: sylvicius Hits Ara Bro For 74
2:36:19: Teela Exits Zone With Equipment Value of 0
2:36:26: sylvicius Hits Ara Bro For 67
2:36:53: Ramon Hits Ara Bro For 42
2:37:01: clochard Hits Ara Bro For 67
2:37:01: Ramon Hits Ara Bro For 53
2:37:01: Ramon Kills Ara Bro

Collect fire from sylvicius , clochard , Ramon on Ara Bro. Killed in 1 minutes in game time (3s).


2:37:20: Ramon Hits Cpt Courier For 2
...
3:03:26: Ramon Kills Cpt Courier

Collect fire from the 4 sneakers for 23 minutes and 6 seconds in game to kill 1 sPA ( 1 minutes 1 second ).

So yes Tech/Law did focus fire.
The needler is in-fact OP.
This isn't a sneak issue.

I've already added aimtime back to aimed shots for pistols. Just haven't patched since no server crash for a week.


Also
29:07: Ramon Enters Zone With Equipment Value of 1641
4:45:37: Ramon Exits Zone With Equipment Value of 11301
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Niamak on March 24, 2016, 03:02:30 PM
I was pretty close.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 03:20:40 PM
me too :D

Also
29:07: Ramon Enters Zone With Equipment Value of 1641
4:45:37: Ramon Exits Zone With Equipment Value of 11301

almost 1:10 ratio no joke and i didnt have to look in log , man im such a gud guy ... praise the sun

im looking forward to the patch -cheers
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Count Matthew on March 24, 2016, 03:42:34 PM
I've been saying this for the last week but didn't have any evidence.

Thanks Cirn0.

Now Colty McColtface
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 24, 2016, 04:40:28 PM
i was using legendary needler cirn0

equipment value has lost all meaning this late in the season, lets make a simple comparison:
how much is a legendary needler worth in your value calculation? probably 400 caps like a clean needler, possibly even less due to detoriation
and how much value do super stimpaks add? 75 caps each

how long does it take to make one legendary needler? several hours of pvp and downtime in between, not to mention you lose all effort should you die
and how long does it take to farm super stimpaks? you can get several HUNDREDS in one hour on hospital lvl 2, if you die you can just quickly come back and grab your stuff


also the only thing too strong is the AP ammo, dont nerf needler as a whole, only adress the real problem
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: cirn0 on March 24, 2016, 04:43:25 PM
Reminds me to add a multiplier to legendary item value.

Needler and its ammo is one in the same, the only thing that uses needler ammo is the needler, so its a simple change I can touch either without worrying about the implications on 30 other weapons.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 24, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
Needler and its ammo is one in the same

No, not really

Nerf the weapon: use AP ammo or nothing
Nerf AP ammo: Player gets to choose between two different ammo types to fill two different roles

Also i really hate how bleed is calculated. Like Smalltime or someone on irc said bleed right now is just another word for hollow point ammo. Bleed should not always be just another multiplier thats applied to the direct damage done.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: John Porno on March 24, 2016, 08:11:58 PM
well before the bleed change on 2015 new years, bleed completely ignored armor, which I actually really liked for gameplay purposes but it kinda doesnt make a lot of sense. Using bleed in the opposite way, dealing extra damage to unarmoed targets, actually allows us to have certain weapons deal a lot of damage on paper without it feeling like people are getting instakilled.

I think we should further expand on the idea of combining high healing rate, high bleed resist and dmg to bleed conversion as the agressive player's defence. Kill first, heal later.
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 24, 2016, 08:54:51 PM
what im saying is not all weapons that inflict bleed have to behave in the same way

you could make some weapons that inflict a fixed amount of bleed per shot if that shot does any damage.
The result is a weapon that can fight heavy armored targets and at the same time doesnt instashrek low armors
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 09:26:33 PM
what im saying is not all weapons that inflict bleed have to behave in the same way

you could make some weapons that inflict a fixed amount of bleed per shot if that shot does any damage.
The result is a weapon that can fight heavy armored targets and at the same time doesnt instashrek low armors

sounds like same shit idea like no aimtime for pistols and we all know the results , if u want to kill heavy armored characters take a combat char ...
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 24, 2016, 09:34:08 PM
cryier pls
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 09:35:55 PM
cryier pls

what u want nigga , i read your suggestion like give something to kill spa even faster with paperbuilds. soz
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: RazorRamon on March 24, 2016, 09:37:42 PM
where did i say something about weapons for paper builds?
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: Kurwier on March 24, 2016, 09:41:25 PM
where did i say something about weapons for paper builds?

how do you think a fixed amount of bleed will work on no paper armors but in same time not on paper armors , maybe i dont understand the magic behind it ?
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: John Porno on March 25, 2016, 08:56:54 AM
what im saying is not all weapons that inflict bleed have to behave in the same way

you could make some weapons that inflict a fixed amount of bleed per shot if that shot does any damage.
The result is a weapon that can fight heavy armored targets and at the same time doesnt instashrek low armors
Exactly, I'm annoyed too that I have no way right now of putting fixed bleed on weapons. Cirn pls fix
Title: Re: Sneaker / Pistol situation
Post by: BG Sexpert on March 25, 2016, 04:09:19 PM
Needler and its ammo is one in the same

No, not really

Nerf the weapon: use AP ammo or nothing
Nerf AP ammo: Player gets to choose between two different ammo types to fill two different roles

Also i really hate how bleed is calculated. Like Smalltime or someone on irc said bleed right now is just another word for hollow point ammo. Bleed should not always be just another multiplier thats applied to the direct damage done.

The reason why it is like this is because of how the Ammo is designed. There are really only 2 ammo archetypes:

1. For almost all weapons there is an AP ammo which has almost no bleed, but armor penetrative properties. This ammo is typically best for fast shot/bursting builds where you need armor penetration because you aren't getting critical bypasses.

 2. and a Bleed ammo. An ammo that has low (or no) armor penetrative properties, but big bleed modifiers. This ammo is objectively best for aimed shot crit weapons because those aimed shots have armor bypass potential.

Typically if there is a 3rd or more variant of an ammo, its a neglected, objectively bad ammo.

This however brings to point why the Needler AP ammo was broken. The needler has weapon perks that give bleed coefficient. This bleed damage was completely independent (but additive) to any ammo bleed modifications. Needler AP ammo also happened to have the 2nd best AP mods in the game (second only to the supreme 20 mm EC) with 50% DR and 50% DT reduction, a x1 damage multiplier (some ammo has a .x8 damage meaning 20% less damage), and NO bleed modifier.

Now the amount of bypass is dependent on the stats of the target, but the Needler has 2x Piercing Strike. Piercing strike adds 20% armor bypass on crit bypasses. Now this should be coming to point, but regardless of the targets stats (in ideal circumstance) the needler and its ammo BY DEFAULT are bypassing 90% of the targets armor without even having to roll for  bypass severity.

So the needler with AP ammo is completely ignoring the targets armor. The bleed damage is flat multiplicative of the damage done to the target. So the AP ammo actually does MORE bleed than the Bleed ammo because the damage is 100% unmitigated by the target. This is a problem that is already being addressed. But the solution is nerfing both the damage modifier of the AP ammo and the DR/DT modifiers.

If you want weapons doing "flat bleed" damage, you're going to have to create an ammo that has -100% DR and -100% DT modifiers (like 20 mm EC) and x.2-.3 damage multiplier with something like x3-5 damage multipliers. This will cause it to do the weapon damage converted almost entirely to bleed.

That or you give specific aimed shot weapons 3 or 4x Piercing Strike so they just bypass armor entirely.