FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

General section => Changelogs => Topic started by: cirn0 on January 21, 2015, 12:51:34 AM

Title: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on January 21, 2015, 12:51:34 AM
Fixes:
- Fixed ammo modifier which had % components were actually dealing 100% damage ( Notability affecting the 9mm AP bullet doing 40% more damage, minigun doing 20% more and 40mm nades doing 100% more )
- Envenom perk now takes 100 Melee Skill to get, was checking for throwing
- Error in the Lawyer Gate default spawn
- AP Plus from agility now correct giving .69 per point (up from .56)
- ~noreloadmode renamed to ~noreload and fixed
- Alt+click for dropping items fixed
- Shift+click to equip items remade: possible to use only if slot is free
- Core map fixes
- Fixed Grenadier Perk

Changes:
- Weapon deterioration rate inline with new armor deterioration rate.
- ~rerolls are unlimited
- Actions with item screens now require click to perform per each item
- Traits in description now stacks to numbers instead of repeating itself
- Psycho now gives -20 to Bleed Resist instead of AP Regen Malus
- Grenade costs now reduced in price
- Djibooti Shooti added to all DMR sniper rifles ( Semi-auto sniper rifles )
- Reloading hotkey stops all action to prioritize reload
- Reloading hotkey works on WM
- Changed Weapons:
Pulse Grenade
Plasma Grenade
Frag Grenade
Laser Rifle
Mageneto Laser Pistol
Electro Rifle
Turbo Plasma
Needler

Additions:
- All new perks introduced will now be available at level 21, allowing a mix and match of 2 of them.
- Added Rambo Perk
- Added Shotgun Surgeon Perk
- Throwing Damage now increased by Melee Damage
- CTRL + G will open up a pickup menu so you can select specific items in a pile on the floor. ( Rebind-able later )

Control schemes commands added:
~moveattack - skips default cursor after changing cursor in attack mode
~easymove - RMB is used to move, spacebar (or MMB) to change modes
~holdmove - pressing RMB turns on move cursor, releasing is turning it off
~wheelzoom - mouse wheel will zoom without key modifier
~lessclicks - combination of ~easymove, ~wheelzome and ~noreload

Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: faopcurious on January 21, 2015, 01:02:47 AM
You can finally CNTRL-G item piles now?  We love you, you guys ;).
and finally balancing that magneto laser pistol and others huh? good, good job, fix da balance.
I really hope this fonline gets players again, it doesn't deserve to be left in the ashes ;D
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 21, 2015, 01:07:55 AM
"There is no balance, only experiments" (Cirn)
And bugs.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on January 21, 2015, 01:12:27 AM
This is awesome!

Although I literally just bought 30 grenades...Damn you, cruel world.

So if I choose ~lessclicks I dont need to do the others?

Pick up menu, genius. However my persoanal favorite, R works on WM  ;D
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 21, 2015, 01:15:05 AM
Yes. But you should try others, they are different. Mostly
~moveattack
~holdmove
~easymove

Also you can use it along with old ~controls if you don't like to change modes at all.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on January 21, 2015, 01:15:40 AM
Yes. But you should try others, they are different.

Okay will do, thanks very much!
"Core map fixes"?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(Edit) When you say cheaper grenades you really meant it haha. Now there is no reason for everyone not to have one or two in their pockets. Can now buy 10 mustard gas nades for the price of one.

Although I don't have grenadier perk and the mustard nades still stay in my hands after throwing one.

Tested all the others and they unequip after first throw.

Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on January 21, 2015, 08:28:45 AM
FA could still see some love with 200 FA + field medic first aid kit u cant heal more than some 20 or 40 hp after bandage level gets 100 , so if u fa yoursels one time for very much hp u have almost 100 bandage which makes FA useless atm or half ap cost for it , before update u could easily go to 200 bandage with that fa kit which was okey maybe something broken i dunno

that ctrl + g is nice but it needs some love , pls let it pop up automatically after u picked one item it would also be cool to have working binoculars in that window to see what condition specific items has also if u search big pile u cant scroll through items
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Teela on January 21, 2015, 08:43:30 AM
I can't seem to find shotgun surgeon. Am I blind, retarded or is there a prerequisite?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on January 21, 2015, 08:48:12 AM
throwing increased by melee ???
hmm i see no change dmg for thrown seem the same or it is just not displayed ?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 21, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
- Fixed [...] 9mm AP bullet doing 40% more damage

Why are you doing this to me

My character was made to use sniper rifles and wakizashi. So that's what i used at first.
Then came the nerf to sneak when using two-handed guns
So i switched to Desert Eagle .50 and waki instead
Then came the nerf to carry weight while sneaking
So then i used wakizashi only
Then came the nerf to crit damage%
So i used 9mm SMGs instead
and now this


Now all that's left for me is to stand sneaked in a corner and /s insults in arabic letters to demoralize the opponent
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Komrade on January 21, 2015, 09:19:57 AM
- Fixed [...] 9mm AP bullet doing 40% more damage

Why are you doing this to me

My character was made to use sniper rifles and wakizashi. So that's what i used at first.
Then came the nerf to sneak when using two-handed guns
So i switched to Desert Eagle .50 and waki instead
Then came the nerf to carry weight while sneaking
So then i used wakizashi only
Then came the nerf to crit damage%
So i used 9mm SMGs instead
and now this


Now all that's left for me is to stand sneaked in a corner and /s insults in arabic letters to demoralize the opponent

You know what comes next, right ?  :)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 21, 2015, 09:27:40 AM
22-02-15
...
Added:
- Shouting consumes energy cells, 600 per shout.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 21, 2015, 09:27:55 AM
- Fixed [...] 9mm AP bullet doing 40% more damage

Why are you doing this to me

My character was made to use sniper rifles and wakizashi. So that's what i used at first.
Then came the nerf to sneak when using two-handed guns
So i switched to Desert Eagle .50 and waki instead
Then came the nerf to carry weight while sneaking
So then i used wakizashi only
Then came the nerf to crit damage%
So i used 9mm SMGs instead
and now this


Now all that's left for me is to stand sneaked in a corner and /s insults in arabic letters to demoralize the opponent

You know what comes next, right ?  :)

Arabic letters removed from game?
No i sadly know whats gonna come next already, movespeed rework so i cant GO FAST any longer by stacking bloodthirst+voodoo but that would require me to be able to kill someone with sneak weapons in the first place :^]

22-02-15
...
Added:
- Shouting consumes energy cells, 600 per shout.
Please dont joke about this, cirn0 might change it so sneaked characters can only whisper
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on January 21, 2015, 10:31:19 AM
make milkor smoke and flame grenades also buyable in boxes and cheaper pls
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: anonymousplayer on January 21, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
It's coming along nicely. Looking forward to re-release, it's already much better, combat getting a lot of additions, just the content needs more MASS
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 21, 2015, 11:11:33 AM
Maybe not consumming  more cells, but shouting should definitely unsneak.
How can someone be able to shout strong enough to be heared in an entire block, and be stealthy at the very same time ?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 21, 2015, 11:28:09 AM
because my sneakboy has voice distortion software

it also has a little screen where i watch porn clips of your mum
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Komrade on January 22, 2015, 08:21:24 AM
Naossano continue your great Crusade against these filthy sneakers, gather your followers and cleanse the lands of Phoenix from this disease called sneaking.

Now lets see if Ramon will be able to withstand the great force of destruction that descends on his lands, defeat is not an option because extermination will follow. 
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 22, 2015, 09:34:58 AM
Ill gladly give up my ability to shout while sneaked, after all it does not follow realism

But Naossano gets held to the same principles: He gets his in-game vision stripped to only whats directly in front of him, after all humans only have a 120° cone of vision. Now finally Naossanos new world will be void of any sneakers because now its not even needed to kill him from behind!
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Stem Sunders on January 22, 2015, 09:36:34 AM
Ill gladly give up my ability to shout while sneaked, after all it does not follow realism

But Naossano gets held to the same principles: He gets his in-game vision stripped to only whats directly in front of him, after all humans only have a 120° cone of vision. Now finally Naossanos new world will be void of any sneakers because now its not even needed to kill him from behind!

Kinda true, but even though you can't see behind you I'll bet you're often aware whats back there.

Awareness.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 22, 2015, 09:48:59 AM
- Fixed [...] 9mm AP bullet doing 40% more damage

Why are you doing this to me

My character was made to use sniper rifles and wakizashi. So that's what i used at first.
Then came the nerf to sneak when using two-handed guns
So i switched to Desert Eagle .50 and waki instead
Then came the nerf to carry weight while sneaking
So then i used wakizashi only
Then came the nerf to crit damage%
So i used 9mm SMGs instead
and now this


Now all that's left for me is to stand sneaked in a corner and /s insults in arabic letters to demoralize the opponent

go visit cirn0 at home meybe thet solves problem
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 22, 2015, 10:05:10 AM
Its too far away sadly, id have started irl sneak mission already if it wasnt for that
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 22, 2015, 10:22:32 AM
Nao has watchtower irl
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: VanCarnY on January 22, 2015, 10:59:48 AM
Dudes, melee question. throw away if already concluded.  are the combat knife and switchblade not supposed to have an aimed option? because these two weapons seem bugged. 
verily. 

and if there were an AOP player who would use such items it would be this one.  perhaps they were never intended to be used but, currently, they just burn your ap whilst doing nuthin.  thanks for your consideration.

by the way... is the only viable sneaker a 10 strength, combat leather coat, machete sneaker?  because im confused about all of these malus... so far in my sneaking experience... i have been spotted from many hex away or spotted other sneakers from very far away.  is this not chance based?  and how much does my perception/sneak skill affect my ability to see another sneaker? 

i suppose i can hide behind obstacles and sneak to get hits from behind with the waki but so far i've been much more successful with straight up melee weapons.  ty for time. just some thoughts of a new player :) ty
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 22, 2015, 12:06:26 PM
combat knife is broken it shoud work normal when cirn0 dicides to invest time to fix
about sneeking it only works if you come from back or side of enemy from front side it isent so good i whit 2 pe can see you like 5-10hex
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: VanCarnY on January 22, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
cool thanks :)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: GREED on January 22, 2015, 06:22:32 PM
What about crafting table bug... please dont make me have this thing in the middle of my room for another day
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 22, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
Naossano continue your great Crusade against these filthy sneakers, gather your followers and cleanse the lands of Phoenix from this disease called sneaking.


I am totally OK with sneakers. My only complain was about the sneak melee being too OP. Those characters were able kill you in two hits, the first hit putting you on the ground, before you saw the guy, so you didn't even had the opportunity to fight. Which was an exception in the whole AOP, in which the fight last longer, which set it appart from other servers. Then, you could add the fact those character are cheap in equipement, and according a teammate that tried those, were lethal way before lvl 24.
(to sum the whole thing up)

It doesn't mean, at all, that i am agains't those who played these characters or that i don't want those characters to be strong. Just that it had to be balanced... (I also need to mention that, while the build is OP, not all who played those were skilled enough to fully take advantage of it.)

PS: I also consider the non-sneak melee quite OP, while also quite cheap, but it would mean that half of my team should level up new chars...
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 22, 2015, 08:45:33 PM
Melee should cost as much as any other class, now it's too cheap.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 22, 2015, 08:51:22 PM
melee really is fine with exception of supersledge
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 22, 2015, 11:23:46 PM
Naossano continue your great Crusade against these filthy sneakers, gather your followers and cleanse the lands of Phoenix from this disease called sneaking.


I am totally OK with sneakers. My only complain was about the sneak melee being too OP. Those characters were able kill you in two hits, the first hit putting you on the ground, before you saw the guy, so you didn't even had the opportunity to fight. Which was an exception in the whole AOP, in which the fight last longer, which set it appart from other servers. Then, you could add the fact those character are cheap in equipement, and according a teammate that tried those, were lethal way before lvl 24.
(to sum the whole thing up)

It doesn't mean, at all, that i am agains't those who played these characters or that i don't want those characters to be strong. Just that it had to be balanced... (I also need to mention that, while the build is OP, not all who played those were skilled enough to fully take advantage of it.)

PS: I also consider the non-sneak melee quite OP, while also quite cheap, but it would mean that half of my team should level up new chars...

I'll preface this by saying I sneak regularly. I also have other characters that aren't sneak based. Those weapons that "kill in two hits" needs some explaining. The weapon you are talking about is the Wakizashi, its no secret. But its not just the weapon, its that you need to be sneaking and hit the opponent from behind. That gives the weapon double damage. If that hit is a critical it and has a status modifier, you get a crit dmg modifier from the Finisher perk, and can do pretty good damage. Then you factor in Silent Hill Death (damage increase as enemy life decreases), and you get the big numbers from the killing blow.

So that is why the damage readouts have been so high. Its not just SNEAK DAMAGE 2HIGH 420NERFPLZ. It takes a character specifically made to take advantage of these sneak, behind the back, blows.

Those two hit kills, which you hate so much, cost 94 AP on a character made correctly. So an entire AP bar to kill someone. Thats not the only weapon that has that kind of damage potential, not even close. Again this is only possible as a critical hit from behind while in sneak mode.

In AoP it is easier than ANY other FOnline iteration to detect sneak. The melee sneaker, actually has to be within range where he is revealed to attack you. Consider that, the sneaker is completely vulnerable for several hexes before he is even able to attack. Any attack done to him desneaks him and is a guaranteed critical bypass.

Pretty much any time you have died to a sneaker is because, you were bad and your reflexes were too slow. Now I've never been a lawyer. I've played V-tec and Family for some time. That being said, I rarely kill a lawyer with a sneak character. WHY? Because they have their shit together, even when I think I have the drop on a Lawyer 3:4 times they turn and shoot me before I can strike, and I have to run away with my tail between my legs, if they don't kill me out right. You have nobody to blame but yourself for dying to a sneaker.

Just yesterday I saw a lawyer (his name started with V) running alone in the core. I chuckled to myself thinking "easy kill" so I huffed some Voodoo and went after him. he fled, but then right before I got to him, he switched to a Super Sledge and cracked me 1hex before my attack. Then he shot me in the ass as I ran away. So I healed, resneak'd and went after him with more tact. The results were the same.

As it stands, sneak as an attack type is pretty bad. I know people like to complain when they see big numbers, but they really probably don't know what all is going into that big hit. A specifically designed character, attacking from behind, getting a critical, while in melee distance. It is a dangerous lifestyle, with (what used to be) good damage potential. It requires hit and run tactics, and actual planning to perform on any level.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on January 22, 2015, 11:59:43 PM
Naossano continue your great Crusade against these filthy sneakers, gather your followers and cleanse the lands of Phoenix from this disease called sneaking.


I am totally OK with sneakers. My only complain was about the sneak melee being too OP. Those characters were able kill you in two hits, the first hit putting you on the ground, before you saw the guy, so you didn't even had the opportunity to fight. Which was an exception in the whole AOP, in which the fight last longer, which set it appart from other servers. Then, you could add the fact those character are cheap in equipement, and according a teammate that tried those, were lethal way before lvl 24.
(to sum the whole thing up)

It doesn't mean, at all, that i am agains't those who played these characters or that i don't want those characters to be strong. Just that it had to be balanced... (I also need to mention that, while the build is OP, not all who played those were skilled enough to fully take advantage of it.)

PS: I also consider the non-sneak melee quite OP, while also quite cheap, but it would mean that half of my team should level up new chars...

I'll preface this by saying I sneak regularly. I also have other characters that aren't sneak based. Those weapons that "kill in two hits" needs some explaining. The weapon you are talking about is the Wakizashi, its no secret. But its not just the weapon, its that you need to be sneaking and hit the opponent from behind. That gives the weapon double damage. If that hit is a critical it and has a status modifier, you get a crit dmg modifier from the Finisher perk, and can do pretty good damage. Then you factor in Silent Hill Death (damage increase as enemy life decreases), and you get the big numbers from the killing blow.

So that is why the damage readouts have been so high. Its not just SNEAK DAMAGE 2HIGH 420NERFPLZ. It takes a character specifically made to take advantage of these sneak, behind the back, blows.

Those two hit kills, which you hate so much, cost 94 AP on a character made correctly. So an entire AP bar to kill someone. Thats not the only weapon that has that kind of damage potential, not even close. Again this is only possible as a critical hit from behind while in sneak mode.

In AoP it is easier than ANY other FOnline iteration to detect sneak. The melee sneaker, actually has to be within range where he is revealed to attack you. Consider that, the sneaker is completely vulnerable for several hexes before he is even able to attack. Any attack done to him desneaks him and is a guaranteed critical bypass.

Pretty much any time you have died to a sneaker is because, you were bad and your reflexes were too slow. Now I've never been a lawyer. I've played V-tec and Family for some time. That being said, I rarely kill a lawyer with a sneak character. WHY? Because they have their shit together, even when I think I have the drop on a Lawyer 3:4 times they turn and shoot me before I can strike, and I have to run away with my tail between my legs, if they don't kill me out right. You have nobody to blame but yourself for dying to a sneaker.

Just yesterday I saw a lawyer (his name started with V) running alone in the core. I chuckled to myself thinking "easy kill" so I huffed some Voodoo and went after him. he fled, but then right before I got to him, he switched to a Super Sledge and cracked me 1hex before my attack. Then he shot me in the ass as I ran away. So I healed, resneak'd and went after him with more tact. The results were the same.

As it stands, sneak as an attack type is pretty bad. I know people like to complain when they see big numbers, but they really probably don't know what all is going into that big hit. A specifically designed character, attacking from behind, getting a critical, while in melee distance. It is a dangerous lifestyle, with (what used to be) good damage potential. It requires hit and run tactics, and actual planning to perform on any level.

maybe you should rename yourself into sneakexpert
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: GREED on January 23, 2015, 12:36:37 AM
Lol that was potentially the best post I have ever read.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 02:34:45 AM
If you're interested in using ~lessclicks or any of new control scheme and don't wanna enter it each time you run client before one of the updates will make it for you you can create settings.ini in your game folder and add this:

[controls]
easymove=1
holdmove=0
attackmove=0
controls=0
wheelzoom=1
noreload=1

I hope it's intuitive enough to understand.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Ranger Arn on January 23, 2015, 02:54:14 AM
just remove those dump carry weight mods for sneak...  and/or give fucking reroll WITH tag skills and WITH traits so MANY people (whos characters were fucked up by changes) who quit playing and still waiting for reroll that could fix their characters, can play again. ( to not waste time for farmville/grind exp again ).

Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 23, 2015, 04:00:31 AM
BG Sexpert >

Sure, totally agree with you about the need for a proper build, and the player playing it need to be skilled enough to know when use that blow (only a few of them are). Those informations are already known by most veterans players. Still, the result is the one i described in my previous post, and that result is OP. That doesn't mean that the sneak should be useless. Just that they exagerated the damage input and knockdown effect. It just need a little nerf to be balanced with other build.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 04:16:15 AM
Game should be balanced around team fights and not sneakers killing random scavengers.

In big and small scale organized pvp waki sneakers never were OP.

Killing disorganized, lonely, inexperienced players? Sure, no problem. But there are 2 (SG + EW) with 15 fights posted about it as well.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 23, 2015, 04:23:18 AM
Doesn't negate what i was saying. You are dead before even fighting/running.
Even in big group, i've seen that happen to a few players. They weren't unskilled, they were just the guy's first target.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 04:36:46 AM
Even in small group (4 people) before waki nerf we often killed enemy sneaker before he even attacked anyone of us. Probably, if he'd not be in sneak, but just be tank with waki, it'd be worse. But players ignore/didn't understand such possibility.

In well organized group, one character with high FoV and watchtower will always be able to defend the whole group from several waki sneakers until FoV blockers.

Again I've never player for sneaker or close combat in AoP. I have rarely have any in my team.

I always will concentrate fire on enemy sneakers first, because they have low defence and high damage output. But there wasn't a minute of me dying and thinking that I died because waki sneakers are OP (although I thought so about super sledge).

Probably the only thing I concern about is too cheap speaker equipment cost.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 04:43:15 AM
>Those two hit kills, which you hate so much, cost 94 AP on a character made correctly. So an entire AP bar to kill someone. Thats not the only weapon that has that kind of damage potential, not even close.
The thing is you spent those 94AP in less than 2 sec, doing 2 aimed attacks with no aiming time, resulting in this instant kill with no possible retaliation feeling.

>In AoP it is easier than ANY other FOnline iteration to detect sneak.
You mean other FOnline which have MS ? Ok.

>Pretty much any time you have died to a sneaker is because, you were bad and your reflexes were too slow. [...] You have nobody to blame but yourself for dying to a sneaker.
Yet you say you can't land a hit on a target who has the time to switch to his secondary weapon (OP auto KD ssledge) ? I wonder who is the worst, the guy who has not the ability to react to a 1 sec time window to position his mouse on a sneak coming for him and make sure to KD/KO/cripple him before he reaches him (or have OP ssledge equipped :P) or the guy who has initative as he enter the critical "being visible" zone whenever he wants and still can't land a hit on an enemy who has the time to switch weapon before LOL

So now let's talk about a realistic scenario. You see your target, you wait to have favorable position (advantage of being sneak), then go for him (from behind yeah of course but you have to anyway to avoid being seen - except watchtower). So what can happen ?
- He has SSledge, if he reacts fast enough he kicks your ass (hello Hellmoi)
- He has mirkor, grenade pistol, rocket launcher, if he reacts fast enough, you are being KD, but most of the time, he will also be KD, so you can either flee or fight (better flee as you wear leather)
- He has shotgun, melee weapon, if he reacts fast enough, he can pray to KD you before you reach him. When you hit him, you will be facing him but you have high chances of KO him so easy win against shogun, i'd say 50/50 against melee
- He has another ranged weapon, fast enough or not, he can't make you fall except lucky unaimed shot so it's pretty much win.
So yeah you have no 100% chances of winning, but it takes into account that your opponent reacts to the 1 sec time you need to reach him while he can see you (except watchtower).

Again you are sneak, so you choose your target, and when to strike. So saying it's a dangerous playstyle is just wrong. Also saying you need specific build to do that.. well of course you need a build, it doesn't make it harder to do that.. it's not like it's the only playstyle which needs a specific build ??? The only thing is the low PER which takes some time to learn how to play with low sight range. 10 str 10 int 10 lck heavy handed don't require much skill to click when you create your char (you don't have the 1 sec time window to create your char)

I'll add the facts that playing waki sneak has cheap costs for good rewards (full loot with 10 str is not hard, yes if you loot you have to go back home and come back "oh no") and that you are not unsneak while you kill someone without being hit so you can kill people who don't stick together (while looting core for example)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Niamak on January 23, 2015, 05:55:46 AM
From videos standpoint, Wakizashi kills are so rare, might as well nerf them.  :-*

But we know cirn will only nerf your favorite weapons.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 23, 2015, 08:28:22 AM
The thing is you spent those 94AP in less than 2 sec, doing 2 aimed attacks with no aiming time, resulting in this instant kill with no possible retaliation feeling.
No, he spent those 94 AP in 2 seconds doing attacks and 5 seconds moving at distances where he gets 100% detected if the target changes his facing. Just because you in particular have a feeling theres no chance of retaliation doesn't mean it's not actually there. Chances are you/your squad just dont know how to position themselves and just scream sneak OP when they get caught.

Yet you say you can't land a hit on a target who has the time to switch to his secondary weapon (OP auto KD ssledge) ? I wonder who is the worst, the guy who has not the ability to react to a 1 sec time window to position his mouse on a sneak coming for him and make sure to KD/KO/cripple him before he reaches him (or have OP ssledge equipped :P) or the guy who has initative as he enter the critical "being visible" zone whenever he wants and still can't land a hit on an enemy who has the time to switch weapon before LOL

So now let's talk about a realistic scenario. You see your target, you wait to have favorable position (advantage of being sneak), then go for him (from behind yeah of course but you have to anyway to avoid being seen - except watchtower). So what can happen ?
- He has SSledge, if he reacts fast enough he kicks your ass (hello Hellmoi)
- He has mirkor, grenade pistol, rocket launcher, if he reacts fast enough, you are being KD, but most of the time, he will also be KD, so you can either flee or fight (better flee as you wear leather)
- He has shotgun, melee weapon, if he reacts fast enough, he can pray to KD you before you reach him. When you hit him, you will be facing him but you have high chances of KO him so easy win against shogun, i'd say 50/50 against melee
- He has another ranged weapon, fast enough or not, he can't make you fall except lucky unaimed shot so it's pretty much win.
So yeah you have no 100% chances of winning, but it takes into account that your opponent reacts to the 1 sec time you need to reach him while he can see you (except watchtower).
"Realistic scenarios" and you come up with 1vs1 situations only? If you want to balance (and ruin) the game around 1on1 situations then Street Fighter or Tekken is what you should be playing and not this.

So saying it's a dangerous playstyle is just wrong.
Leave the decision of that to the actual experienced players.

I'll add the facts that playing waki sneak has cheap costs for good rewards [...]
Facts? Cheap costs?

Let's take a look at the equipment prices if you buy them in base

PKS gunner:
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
6 ammo boxes - 300 caps

Sneak:
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)
Stealthboy - 180 caps
100 spare SEC - 55 caps

Im afraid you have no idea of what you are even talking about
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 08:56:51 AM
Hooray somebody finally speaks sense. I was getting tired of

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3e/3ecc6b9aeee1a2da2891487868c7fdfedaaa8b07f69341901d03d1e906dba768.jpg)


P.S.
I'm butthurt that Ramon didn't mention Killer Instinct ><, fuck Tekken.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Teela on January 23, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
Sneak OK as it is. Yes they're annoying, yes they're lethal. But two bursts and they explode.

Btw: Mortal Kombat II clearly is the best.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 23, 2015, 09:09:29 AM
P.S.
I'm butthurt that Ramon didn't mention Killer Instinct ><, fuck Tekken.
I dont like Tekken either, just wanted some popular example.
SF is the only fighting game for me :)

Sneak OK as it is [...], yes they're lethal.

Not right now, you cant kill anyone (with some very low max HP exceptions) in two hits anymore.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 09:16:58 AM
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)

You just compared armors of different levels, gj.
We all know that leather jacket suppose to be "equal" combat armor, and CLC to SCAmk3.
Also where's the weapon cost, hm? Don't see it in the list.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 09:23:36 AM
I always wanted sneak to be:
Utility
(http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-14-2014/5sqAmI.gif)

NOT:
(http://share.gifyoutube.com/yD7nE3.gif)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 09:30:43 AM
I like how people start to flam as soon as you say their stuff is OP. The thing is, sorry about that, I have a waki sneak myself and I leveled it to see if it was actually that OP and yes it was. Yes I am talking on 1v1 situations, you can't attack a squad by yourself ? Oh no ! And still if they are scavenging/splitting, you can kill one and leave, as you do not lose stealth again.

I already explained on previous posts how sneaks can be useful on ZC. We even discussed about melees in ZC. Here we were talking about spending 94ap in less than 2 sec. Your 5 sec are not realistic either because
- They don't turn -> you reach target
- They turn while you are coming to them and you still going : First you already click on attack so you don't have to do anything at that point. He on the other hand sees you, then has to target you with his weapon and then look at the scenarii above.
- They turn while you are coming so you just leave. As most of the time you attack (as a sneak) with buildings and other stuff, you can run away more like 3 times out of 4.

So again, as people don't like to read posts, as you can choose your fights, it is not a dangerous playstyle, as you can choose your fights, it is cheap for high rewards, as you can choose your fights, you can go when odds are good for you, as you can choose your fights you won't attack a full squad stick together (then u'll go say on forum that you are not OP coz u had to run away in front of a squad).

Even when you can't reach the high dam coz you hit with enemy facing you, you have high chances to land a KO, with 2 consecutive attacks with no aiming time, while a gun would just be able to do unaimed shots and pray. If you see a solo with ssledge or shotgun, then it's your choice to go against him. He can't kill you if you don't engage.

So I am afraid you are just defending a bit too much your character playstyle. I am not saying anyone can play waki sneak as if you rush every target in the open of course you will die. But as soon as you get some skills, and I don't mean hardcore gamer skills, it's easy peasy to get kills. Ok you'll get a lot of scavengers kills, but even ZC solo people.

EDIT : Myakot I do believe that sneak can have this purpose on AoP. The thing is most people wants to kill. During ZC, they can do a lot of decent jobs, but I don't think it's rewarding enough at the moment. I won't say sneak must be scouts only, but there should be some rewards to scouting as it is a very useful asset. The relic suggestion was also good for that, making sneaks more versatile as they could have some nice jobs to do on that.

SF is the only fighting game for me :)
The only thing i would say amen to  :)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Ranger Arn on January 23, 2015, 09:38:51 AM
imo sneak as skill is OK but COSTS of sneaking and weight mods to it are making it unplayable for no-caps-grinders. But mostly pains me sneak time reduced by weight. -> stealthboy drains too fast.
I understand that many people are arguing about PVP aspects of assasin ect. but why there are still nerfs to scout/scavenge aspects of that skill, that i cant understand.

So basically, cose I cant do anything about it, I will spamm again and again - pls remove weight mods from sneak... or even make stealthboy capacity larger like 7200 units. Anything just make it works. I dont care about whole "sneak assasin discussion" just want to have fun playing on sneak ect. without losing tons of caps/couldnt get out with loot cose stealthboy drains out.

I want to come back on aop and have fun but there are still things that makes game more grind and "rage-quit" than play-for-fun - I hope that more players see this in the same way.

Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 09:40:43 AM
Myakot,
Player can see contours from smoke. Why? Is it replay / cheats / Fonline contours?

And yes, I'm agree with it. Sneakers have very important role on the battlefield: being invisible and scouting, there's no defence better than lack of enemy awareness of your position.
But what's the difference between sledgehammer death-lock and waki kill? (btw, waki had low chance to kill 10 CH with ~270+ HP even without drugs with 2 hits). Only some less time to detect in exchange to some longer time to kill. If there's a place for supersledge and other weapon, there's no waki problem.

As a fan of realism in the games, I'd say the sneaker's advantage is absence of footsteps / deathscreams / positional awareness / direct communication

Ranger Arn,
Combat looting is not approved by devs tactics, as far as I know.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 09:43:43 AM
@Ranger Arn : The weight limit is boring at start, mostly because you can't have many choices of 2nd weapon. Then if you kill someone 1v1, it's easy to loot and leave without sneaking. If it's in a ZC situation, well we can assume your team won if you're looting. If not, you still have voodoo + sprint perk for example to run away to closest sewers.

One thing however, the carry weight limit has bothered more the whole sneak community than the waki sneak assassin.

@Parangon : Scouts are very good for getting the position of enemy, but also to get intel of armors if PA or not, and on weapons they are equiped with. They can also backstab on long range snipers during the fight and chase runaways.
And I agree about the ssledge thing, that's why if you remember the melee thread discussion, I was saying that auto-KD was the only thing that should be reworked for melees.
With the grenades cheaper and grenadier perk, I am wondering if throwing a grenade unsneak ? Coz it can be another powerful thing, as they have better position to throw smokes and all  :o
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 23, 2015, 09:53:57 AM

PKS gunner:
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
6 ammo boxes - 300 caps

Sneak:
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)
Stealthboy - 180 caps
100 spare SEC - 55 caps

Im afraid you have no idea of what you are even talking about

Do you actually think that PKS gunners only come to fight with an armor and a pack of ammos ? And we are those who have no idea about what we are talking about ?

Most PVP fighters have not only ammos, but a gun to use those ammos on. Many of them happen to also have a secondary weapon (or even a third one) in case the situation require a different approach. They are not hiding, they cannot choose to be seen or not. If the enemy approach, they have to face them or use other trick to outrun them. And that second weapon often require ammos to use it. Then you can add stimpacks or other healing items, defibrilator for fallen comrades, drugs, something to launch, in the utility slot. All of these elements should be used with cautions, as they depends on situations they will face, which they cannot predict in advance. If you check Suff's PVP video, you will see that the guy is even more crazy prepared than us, with a ton of equipement in his inventory. He have to take those as he never knows which situation he will face.

I had the opportunity to loot melee sneak multiple times, and most of the time, they only have their melee weapon, their armor, a stealth boy and a few ammo for the stealth boy. They rarelly even bother to take some stimpack. They choose their fights, which mean they don't have to take extra equipement to be prepared for the dangers they will face. If the enemy is too strong or too numerous, they just not engage. They wait for the right moment to deliver those two blows, loot and run. No need to heal, no need to switch weapon of varying range, no need to throw anything. They just deliver their blow when they can, or hide when they cannot. (if they are patient and skilled. That type of build is, of course, not meant for those who don't like to wait)
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: GREED on January 23, 2015, 10:01:33 AM
Why is everyone bitching like little girls. It is fine as is, I never intend to play as waki sneaker but I like them as an enemy. You have to work around the game and make sacrifices, if you want to scout. Don't take anything with you except epc's and run away when trouble. If you can't do that then be a different class...
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 10:05:00 AM
> Why is everyone bitching like little girls

Most probably everyone wanna play the game they like. Why are you so rude?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: John Porno on January 23, 2015, 10:18:30 AM
not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 10:19:32 AM
@paragon -> replays have on\off X-ray built in.

@Nao & Anza

What are you suggesting?

1. Increasing gear cost -> wrong. More grinding is shit, and waki-sneak will still be "unbalanced".
2. Further nerf of weight limitations for sneak -> wrong. Nobody will want to play a "sight ward" (moba reference, pls no killerino). The multi-log problem will appear (people will need their intel).
3. Damage nerf -> already happened, crits were nerfed severely.
4. Increase AP cost -> Combined with new crit nerf = overkill.

What is it that you want so badly for us to understand?

p.s.
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/226/810/e73.jpg)
Quote
thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 10:44:55 AM
I suggested it already in previous threads.

- Sneak carry weight management is a good idea imo, but as I said, it nerfed the whole sneaks way more than the waki assassin. No need to add more nerf, but don't remove it.
- I don't ask for increase gear cost, I just state that it is cheap for high rewards.
- Damage nerf, yes it did happen. The problem again is in the no aiming time on those 2 hits aimed to head. Anyway even with dam nerf 10 str heavy handed add a lot of base dam that are amplified by weapon perks, so you'll still do more dam than other weapons who got nerfed too. But yes no need to add more dam nerf atm.
- Increase AP cost no, 2 hits with 1 bar is good, but there should be a noticeable aiming time, so if you don't make the enemy fall on the first hit, he can at least shoot you once or whatever.

The issue again is on that feeling of no-possible-retaliation. Because melees don't have noticeable aiming time compared to other weapons.

Of course it is hard to balance, but one other thing is that people want to be effective in every situations with their build. Each build should be strong in their best situations but not 100% win.

- Melees can complain they can't do shit in opened areas. But they are very strong in closed areas.
- Snipers can complain they can't do shit with enemies close to them because of long aiming time. But they are very strong in opened areas (in ZC situations)
- Sneak assassins can complain they can't kill in ZC, but they are very (!) strong in 1v1

What I mean is you should adapt and play as your build is targetted to. Saying you can't kill people in a squad is just wrong, sneak assassins purpose is to kill people on 1v1 and atm, it is not only strong, but mostly OP because of game mechanics that make melees have no aiming time. And remove that auto-KD on ssledge, make it XX%

So what do I suggest, add more aiming time to melees. Of course less than guns, and yes I know that it will be hard to balance. I don't have magic solution, but should I not say things are not balanced then ?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 10:50:46 AM
Your gear cost should be an argument for a function of your success chance, but logarithmic, so over-priced gear do not give you any critical advantage.

It's called risk / reward correlation. If sneaker wants to be potentially as effective as other combat chars, he should consider spending the same amount of money for equipment.

Although it's not that trivial task to calculate "potential effectiveness" and actual item price.

With current core maps, close combat builds are more universal, because in most of the cases you can not ignore FoV blockers: you'll eventually have to cross building / tunnel / corner to get anywhere.
And if you have 5 snipers doing ZC, 2 CC character in the building can hold it if there are several doors for ever.
Can 2 snipers kill 5 CC rushing from 50 hexes? Not sure.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 23, 2015, 11:27:51 AM
With current core maps, close combat builds are more universal, because in most of the cases you can not ignore FoV blockers: you'll eventually have to cross building / tunnel / corner to get anywhere.

I you really want to outrun FoV blockers, it can be possible by taking a longer path. But those close quarter character have a chance to reach you if you don't have a suppression character supporting you or aren't more numerous. Plus, you might also need to scavenger/PVP which will lead you to close quarters.

Anyway, as mentioned multiple times, the issue is more about being done at the second you saw your opponement. You lost while not having the opportunity to fight. You can fairly lose a fight, but still have fun, if you get the feeling you actually had a chance to defend yourself. Being dead already is no fun.

But removing the certain death doesn't mean the character should be weak. He could have less chances to instant-death, but still some, he could have the ability to cripple limbs in two hits, so the opponement would have to make a quick decision while the sneaker reload its action points, he could poison the enemy or bleed, so his attack still have effect afterward, he can pinpoint the enemy for his teammates etc... Still be a threat, but give the opponement a change to retaliate.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 11:33:13 AM
Aiming time on melee weapons... *ahem* will render melee weapons the most useless piece of shit there possibly is. :
If target moves, it becomes completely invincible to melee with aiming time, a CC character will swing at thin air each time he tries to attack (and waste ap doing that).
Making that aiming time lesser (for counter-measuring what I just said) will make that change unnoticeable, and therefore won't help.

With new crits you can't 2-hit proper chars anyway, so why aiming time? :/.

Also AFAIK auto-kd on SS is built-in-engine.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 11:42:41 AM
Yes I agree with that Myakot, aiming time is very hard to balance because melees have to be in melee range, even if there were no lag, it would be so hard to land a hit. I was thinking about a short aiming time but even so. Again I know I have no magic solution, that's why we discussed that point so many times  :( I love the aiming time system on guns, that an awesome mechanic compared to other fonlines, but it doesn't mix well with melee mechanics in term of balancing.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 12:10:47 PM
Something ridiculous:

Example: (fake numbers)
Waki does 100 head-crit damage with a heavy-handed 10 st per swing. That swing costs 50AP.
Average char goes "below zero" in those 2 hits. Complaint: "2fast4u".
We can't add aiming time for melee, but we can multiply the amount of swings it takes to take one person down (decreasing the AP cost accordingly).

Main problem with that: Armours have both treshold and % reduction, which makes it impossible to "stay the same, but not that fast". It will either have to drastically increase DPS of waki (while decreasing insta-gib potential), or have the damage output reduced to manure level, while lowing AP cost (crippling weapon).

Just spouting non-sense here, move along.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: cirn0 on January 23, 2015, 12:27:13 PM
Aim time for melee is the time it takes for them to get to you.

There is no foreseeable way to add aim-time to melee in general while keeping it playable. But that doesn't mean I won't add aim-time to pro wrestling moves where you throw an ultra finisher with style to an incapacitated opponent.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Anza on January 23, 2015, 12:38:51 PM
but we can multiply the amount of swings it takes to take one person down (decreasing the AP cost accordingly).

Yes it's actually very good, it will make the full bar spent in like 2.5 sec or 3 ? If 3 hits instead of 2.
And in case the 2 first hits didn't land a KO, then everyone would have chance to at least shoot once. Melee sneaks stay strong on 1v1 but maybe not as OP as now ? And DPS stays the same basically
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 23, 2015, 01:09:54 PM
Game should be balanced around team fights and not sneakers killing random scavengers.

In big and small scale organized pvp waki sneakers never were OP.

Killing disorganized, lonely, inexperienced players? Sure, no problem. But there are 2 (SG + EW) with 15 fights posted about it as well.

A good sneaker is absolutely essential in large scale PvP. I was the sole sneaker for a big 3 way battle that Family won the other day in Junk Canyon. I was providing constant feedback on enemy locations as well as going on key flanks to pick off a player quick and get out. By the end I had a score of over 1300, the highest on the team (of which there were a few BG snipers and an avenger ape). Suff has a video of it. He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

There is a specific time where I KO a guy, then run off (no AP and sitting duck). Scientist comes back and revives the guy and asks "what got you?" I then killed them both. I then zoned around to go in from different grids undetected and cut off several solo reinforcements (that did not count for score mind you). I did the same to Lawyers in the fenced in area. I provided direct feedback of number of enemies, and attack simultaneously from behind while my allies struck the front. You are absolutely devastating as a flanker that timed the attacks when everyone is out of AP.

The sneaker does the work that nobody gives credit to, because they are unnoticed (as intended). You're never going to be the guy in the front lines; you're not supposed to be. You harass, and those harassments add up. If you KO a guy and he gets revived, well then he can't be revived again that battle.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 23, 2015, 01:25:15 PM
>Those two hit kills, which you hate so much, cost 94 AP on a character made correctly. So an entire AP bar to kill someone. Thats not the only weapon that has that kind of damage potential, not even close.
The thing is you spent those 94AP in less than 2 sec, doing 2 aimed attacks with no aiming time, resulting in this instant kill with no possible retaliation feeling.

>In AoP it is easier than ANY other FOnline iteration to detect sneak.
You mean other FOnline which have MS ? Ok.

>Pretty much any time you have died to a sneaker is because, you were bad and your reflexes were too slow. [...] You have nobody to blame but yourself for dying to a sneaker.
Yet you say you can't land a hit on a target who has the time to switch to his secondary weapon (OP auto KD ssledge) ? I wonder who is the worst, the guy who has not the ability to react to a 1 sec time window to position his mouse on a sneak coming for him and make sure to KD/KO/cripple him before he reaches him (or have OP ssledge equipped :P) or the guy who has initative as he enter the critical "being visible" zone whenever he wants and still can't land a hit on an enemy who has the time to switch weapon before LOL

So now let's talk about a realistic scenario. You see your target, you wait to have favorable position (advantage of being sneak), then go for him (from behind yeah of course but you have to anyway to avoid being seen - except watchtower). So what can happen ?
- He has SSledge, if he reacts fast enough he kicks your ass (hello Hellmoi)
- He has mirkor, grenade pistol, rocket launcher, if he reacts fast enough, you are being KD, but most of the time, he will also be KD, so you can either flee or fight (better flee as you wear leather)
- He has shotgun, melee weapon, if he reacts fast enough, he can pray to KD you before you reach him. When you hit him, you will be facing him but you have high chances of KO him so easy win against shogun, i'd say 50/50 against melee
- He has another ranged weapon, fast enough or not, he can't make you fall except lucky unaimed shot so it's pretty much win.
So yeah you have no 100% chances of winning, but it takes into account that your opponent reacts to the 1 sec time you need to reach him while he can see you (except watchtower).

Again you are sneak, so you choose your target, and when to strike. So saying it's a dangerous playstyle is just wrong. Also saying you need specific build to do that.. well of course you need a build, it doesn't make it harder to do that.. it's not like it's the only playstyle which needs a specific build ??? The only thing is the low PER which takes some time to learn how to play with low sight range. 10 str 10 int 10 lck heavy handed don't require much skill to click when you create your char (you don't have the 1 sec time window to create your char)

I'll add the facts that playing waki sneak has cheap costs for good rewards (full loot with 10 str is not hard, yes if you loot you have to go back home and come back "oh no") and that you are not unsneak while you kill someone without being hit so you can kill people who don't stick together (while looting core for example)

I'll address your arguments in the order they were given.
1. You realize you have to RUN to within a few hexes of your opponent to hit them right? You don't simply click them and teleport atop them doing melee damage. That gives them plenty of time to switch weapons, or just shoot you.
2. If you are hit while in sneak, you are no longer in sneak, and all hits for 5 seconds are critical bypasses. A person doesn't need to worry about KD on you, because by default they are going to do more damage per hit than you. All of the damage of the waki comes from damage dealt while sneaking, from behind, while a person has a status effect like KD. By turning and shooting the sneaker, you eliminate pretty much all of his damage modifiers. It doesn't require a specific weapon, as any weapon getting guaranteed crit bypasses is going to do a lot of damage.
3. By specific build, it means that the build is designed entirely around the waki, and potentially the machete. You can't use any other weapon for that kind of damage. I've heard about people using scorpions, but a full sneak build won't have much, if any, SG skill. This is because all other sneak weapons blow. Using a ranged sneak weapon is pointless because after you strike you are "revealed" for a period of time (not really specified anywhere but supposedly variable to the weapon). While revealed anyone can see you and shoot you. If not hit you return to sneak for no penalty, but if hit you receive all of the malus of being caught in sneak: Every hit is a critical bypass. Essentially you trade 1 hit from a low damage sneak weapon, for a guaranteed critical bypass from a better damage weapon.
The reveal mechanic makes sense for melee weapons, someone fucking hits you in the head from behind, you sure as shit are going to see them when you turn around. But it makes absolutely no sense for ranged weapons (and should be removed IMO). If someone is using a silenced weapon, you aren't going to know where they are simply because they shot.

People keep saying "2 hits no retaliation" and what I'm saying is, that if a sneaker has already gotten to you, then you've already lost. That is 100% your fault, as you can see a sneaker before they attack FROM ANY ANGLE. You don't need to retaliate when you get THE FIRST HIT. If you get the first hit, you win almost guaranteed (I say almost because nothing is a guarantee in FOnline. 95% is as good as you get).

If you want to fix sneak, you need to make it a main attack type. Keep the weapon perks as they are but scale them to a 250 cap like all the others. Then improve the ranged sneak weapons, buff the waki slightly, and remove the reveal mechanic from sneak ranged weapons.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 01:30:36 PM
cirn0
Next update better be the one adding manual throws... I specifically ask for mid-air "Siberian Blizzard" or at least an "Ultimate Atomic Buster".
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 23, 2015, 01:59:38 PM
not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody

ye guilly suit is greate idea but like you sead prone to abuse, but proxy people are ashools yesterday we were (3bb) global hoping to ambush v techs in building (we dident know they will come 7 and 1 whit PA but anywey we got 2 kills and only i died, just to know BB ruls) back to point they used blusuit alt to clear buildings to see wher we are, this is alt abusing or proxy abusing anywey it sux and it shoud be BANED
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 23, 2015, 02:44:51 PM
@paragon
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)

You just compared armors of different levels, gj.
We all know that leather jacket suppose to be "equal" combat armor, and CLC to SCAmk3.
Also where's the weapon cost, hm? Don't see it in the list.

...wat

(http://i.imgur.com/xXSadIv.png)

No weapon costs because most weapons are not buyable. And for crafting they more or less all cost the same: Some junk items and a somewhat rare crafting item.



@Anza:
 Im sorry if you took this as flaming, but you are presenting a very one-sided view on the whole argumentation and almost everything you are saying is based on 1on1 fights only. Yeah of course (old) sneak is powerful if you catch someone by surprise in a 1on1 fight in the core, but so is every other weapon. Yet you and a few others dont consider the many downsides of playing sneak in battles that actually matter (ZC):
- You will be somewhere behind the enemy, not only do you have to watch out for where the enemies are looking, you also have to watch out for any bursters on your own team. If youre somewhere in their large cone of burst fire, you will get desneaked with your pants down right between a dozen enemies.
- As soon as someone brings a defibrillator, your kills suddenly matter way less. Any player you backstab can then be revived again and if hes on the defib cooldown and knows a sneaker is around is gonna play much more careful.
- No score inflation and increased cap rewards by shooting back and forth between the firing lines. Only ranged weapons have this option, for melee be it sneak or not, they have to go all in and get the kill in one try or they die themselves.



@Naossano:
Do you actually think that PKS gunners only come to fight with an armor and a pack of ammos ? And we are those who have no idea about what we are talking about ?
Yeah, you definitely have no idea what you are talking about.
What i listed is the bare minimum. But for BOTH classes. Of course im not listing any stimpaks or healing items, but im also not listing the gigantic amounts of voodoo i drink during fights. Or my 8x Scope for increasing my viewrange. Or my secondary weapons (Oh wait, those were taken from me with the unfair weight limits on sneaking).



@ Everyone that went for the "muh scout" and "muh valuable information" arguments. NOBODY has fun playing a human ward like Myakot said. And if you do, stop playing AoP and apply for a position as a night guard somewhere. You can do the same boring shit there and also get paid in the process, wow!
Furthermore the need for players relaying information was greatly reduced. It is now globally announced where and how many people are in any given area of the core unless they own the map.
Scouting inside a building with closed doors is also impossible for a sneaker. If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).
The only scouting feature a pure sneaker brings to the table right now is to cross a grid as the first person and tell his squad whether or not the other side is safe.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Teela on January 23, 2015, 03:13:50 PM
not entirely on topic, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of different aspects that come into play here and some area always forgotten.

One thing I want to mention is that 2 years ago when we started working on sneak, we of course wanted to make something more realistic and thought about soemthing like a ghillie suit where you would get a very high sneak bonus when standing still, so that sneaks would be passive scouts and do ambushes rather than actively seeking out targets.

Now, in every other game that would have been a viable thing to consider but in fonline, it's obvious that a low-cost non combat char that's most useful when standing still is just the perfect thing to use a proxy with.

I'm just saying this to point out that people who want to see a thign dramatically changed often cant see all the consequences that will bring and also that we as devs cant always make perfect mechanics due to other factors that sometimes even lie outside of the game.

Ok now go on everybody

ye guilly suit is greate idea but like you sead prone to abuse, but proxy people are ashools yesterday we were (3bb) global hoping to ambush v techs in building (we dident know they will come 7 and 1 whit PA but anywey we got 2 kills and only i died, just to know BB ruls) back to point they used blusuit alt to clear buildings to see wher we are, this is alt abusing or proxy abusing anywey it sux and it shoud be BANED

that was not an alt or a proxy but an idiot, fyi.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 03:33:56 PM
He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 03:40:19 PM
@ Everyone that went for the "muh scout" and "muh valuable information" arguments. NOBODY has fun playing a human ward like Myakot said. And if you do, stop playing AoP and apply for a position as a night guard somewhere. You can do the same boring shit there and also get paid in the process, wow!
Furthermore the need for players relaying information was greatly reduced. It is now globally announced where and how many people are in any given area of the core unless they own the map.
Scouting inside a building with closed doors is also impossible for a sneaker. If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).
The only scouting feature a pure sneaker brings to the table right now is to cross a grid as the first person and tell his squad whether or not the other side is safe.

I'm wrong then, did see "faction" word, sorry. Still my risk / reward argument is in strength.

I do enjoy playing scout, providing actual and important information on enemy, unfortunately, if I'll work as a guard, I doubt I'll do anything like this.

Now sneaker can perfectly backstab and attack weak chain of the parts, as (how do the fuck everyone found my youtube channel, you're not supposed to) in suff's video shown and sexmaster said.

Although again, I don't think waki nerf was necessary.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 23, 2015, 04:21:02 PM
The new 9mm "fix" oh lawdy.
http://webmshare.com/X5065
He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.

it started with Franz Otto in the back, you will notice it took at least 4 hits to kill him. Then came Scientist, then Hellmri. Hellmri doesn't really count because he was last man left stranded behind a car. He is however most definitely a good player. Those weren't even the only ones I killed that fight, just the ones shown in the video. Suff, and retr died because Suff forgot to load his avenger. It happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_r62xfma8#t=470
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 23, 2015, 04:54:39 PM
Suff used avenger for the first time in his life. So no, it didn't happen before.
Also he doesn't appreciate posting this video in here and may consider making his channel private ):
Unfortunately, only 3 people on this video are organized: suff, rert and Hellmai, and Hellmai was the last one alive.
Although Franz Otto usually does the good job often enough, suff doesn't know why exactly he stayed behind, he doesn't use voice comms.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 23, 2015, 05:32:25 PM
If the enemy team is hiding inside you catch 1-2 bursts to the face as you open the door and drop dead instantly due to weaker armor and guaranteed bypass crits (here's the "no chance of retaliation" argument from the view of a sneak now).

You need to play other characters than sneak.
You compare two entirelly different things.
Being instant-killed by ONE single guy you weren't aware was there has nothing to do with being focus fired by MULTIPLE opponements. Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving by healing/fleeing/throwing a smoke. Anyway, not the point. If you face one of them, you have chances to survive. And even if you can lose, you can actually fight.

Plus, about the cost, sure you take a voodoo. It doesn't remove anything the other character have to take to prepare themselves for any threat, while the sneak doesn't have to face any threat. If the enemy seems too strong, he wouldn't fight and wouldn't even being noticed. Which remove the need of many items.

That you might try to defend your character is understandable, but you seem to purposly forget many facts that were brought to you.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 23, 2015, 05:52:26 PM
Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving by healing/fleeing/throwing a smoke.


hahahaha holy shit


go test what damage you receive being fired at by 3 guys with guaranteed armor bypass

hint: only one minigun/pks is enough already to kill a sneaker faster than a sneaker can kill them from behind
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 23, 2015, 11:05:34 PM
@BGS
Seriously, thanks for that webm... I, for some reason, laughed at that for 2 minutes straight.

@Nao
Ramon is right, armour bypass is an astonishingly strong malus, you can't really hope to stay alive after being revealed.
Also...
Quote
Even focused fired by three guys, you still have a small chance of surviving
No, you don't. There is really no way to survive that, unless they use silenced uzis.
Quote
but you seem to purposly forget many facts that were brought to you.
And you seem to perfectly ignore everything he's been saying =\. I hope that this will end, some day.

p.s.
I just understood that this whole argument feels like TWD (the walking dead: the game) arguments... over Kenny-the-Supreme-Boat-Master-Estravaganza.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on January 23, 2015, 11:17:02 PM
The new 9mm "fix" oh lawdy.
http://webmshare.com/X5065
He was V-tec at the time, so you don't actually see me, you only see a person in the rear die suddenly.

You were killing randoms. Disorganized people without voice comms or without understanding how is it important to be in a group to support each over, just being in the same zone, are not part of the main group. Better show me when you kill retr, Teela, suff, Caboose or anyone from the main group like this.

Again, I'm not saying that sneaker is not important or week. But you just confirm that sneakers is good against disorganized forces and I'm agree, and don't think it needs to be changed.

it started with Franz Otto in the back, you will notice it took at least 4 hits to kill him. Then came Scientist, then Hellmri. Hellmri doesn't really count because he was last man left stranded behind a car. He is however most definitely a good player. Those weren't even the only ones I killed that fight, just the ones shown in the video. Suff, and retr died because Suff forgot to load his avenger. It happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_r62xfma8#t=470

lel at no walls mod all item highlighting haha whos account is that ? suffs ? thx for making my name red btw :D nice recording btw
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 23, 2015, 11:57:09 PM
Suff used avenger for the first time in his life. So no, it didn't happen before.
Also he doesn't appreciate posting this video in here and may consider making his channel private ):
Unfortunately, only 3 people on this video are organized: suff, rert and Hellmai, and Hellmai was the last one alive.
Although Franz Otto usually does the good job often enough, suff doesn't know why exactly he stayed behind, he doesn't use voice comms.

You are misinterpreting a colloquial phrase in english. "it happens" means that we all make mistakes. It is excusable. I know suff is a good player.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: FrankenStone on January 24, 2015, 12:00:37 AM
lel i was laughing my ass off at this comments at end hahahahahaha i thought hey its cool to hear some familiar voices and then this comments :D

https://de.proxfree.com/permalink.php?url=s54aaHA%2FaGsaD5vHs0QZLcUclS%2FcUxrnNZwEMCiA0I%2FvMp9mqU0x%2F955yGXGfdhGQd5Q%2B8zGuKW3xQJXolQ1vw%3D%3D&bit=1
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 25, 2015, 04:54:56 AM
Faction CA mk2 - 1000 caps
Combat leather coat - 1125 caps (!!!)

So where did you find such prices exactly? SCAmk3 cost 1k for me, while CLC cost 800 (!!!) caps.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 25, 2015, 07:50:34 AM
right, i forgot that the heart merchant carries coats too

but they cost 900 caps with 200% persuasion skill for me and not 800

anyway, the point was to prove the "sneak is low cost" wrong
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: nailbrain on January 25, 2015, 08:26:06 AM
ppl dont ruin assasin tru whining , kill them in core
it is unique build and gameplay to AOP leave it be
crit reworks were hard enough for the assasins
and since when gear price became so relevant ??? i run in metal armor and spears are for free ???
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 25, 2015, 02:31:37 PM
Its a thread of people who don't understand the build whining about it, because they assume its easy. It would be OP if the build weren't reliant on so many situational factors. People see big numbers and get mad, despite what it takes to obtain them.

I can't think of the last time I've died to a sneaker (if ever). I think maybe one time, I died to another sneaker while sneaking. I'm not sure. You can clearly see them and completely nullify them before they can do anything. But its impossible for FOnline players to assess their own short comings before posting about something being OP.

Then we get knee jerk nerfs like the one we have in place now, and it makes the skill completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 25, 2015, 02:39:34 PM
sneek is all about luck cuz if you encounter someone in building you dead in 99% - LAg %

on open speaces its morea about tactics like ramon harsing all whit m21 sniper, killed me 1 time but i got my revange indores
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 25, 2015, 03:36:47 PM
dont worry m21 is just backup plan until wakizashi is usable again
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 25, 2015, 05:30:07 PM
Top three silent assassins:
Ramon 417
dholly 330
REDRUM 179 (probably the only one, who didn't kill alts at the platoon base xd)

Ten Top ZC legends:
10. Ramon 4373

Top PK:
2. Ramon (base alts kiling)
7. dholly
8. Maisky

Sure, sneaks never kill.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 25, 2015, 05:32:19 PM
stop using mods and vood you conwert my 120 30 crtit speer dmgs to 50 paragon
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 25, 2015, 05:33:55 PM
Each time I reroll, I science a spear.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 25, 2015, 05:38:28 PM
stop cheating i tested on imakidin my speer do 120 on crit (whitout baypas) on you they do 60
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: BG Sexpert on January 25, 2015, 05:47:17 PM
Top three silent assassins:
Ramon 417
dholly 330
REDRUM 179 (probably the only one, who didn't kill alts at the platoon base xd)

Ten Top ZC legends:
10. Ramon 4373

Top PK:
2. Ramon (base alts kiling)
7. dholly
8. Maisky

Sure, sneaks never kill.

You are giving entirely too much credit to how much ramon plays the game haha.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: RazorRamon on January 25, 2015, 05:49:04 PM
2. Ramon (base alts kiling)
none (or maybe 3-4 when dicking around) of my 417 wakizashi kills are actually done in base on an alt

like ~30 of my regular kills are though, had to do a lot of weapon testing this past week and just killing one guy over and over is faster than using first aid
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 26, 2015, 01:02:00 AM
Quote
2. Ramon (base alts kiling)
I absolutely love that, that you say this thing, even though forum is\was filled with "I hate Ramon" messages ;D
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: paragon on January 26, 2015, 01:29:52 AM
You seem to suspect some kind of disrespect in my words but there is none.
I like Ramon personally and consider him to be one of the best players around in the same time.
I just count statistics and needed to pay attention that not all statistics is 100% accurate.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 26, 2015, 03:17:02 AM
I can confirm that Ramon killed people outside his base.

Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 26, 2015, 03:50:02 AM
i can confrim ramon died out of base
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 26, 2015, 04:14:12 AM
We can both confirm that Ramon played outside his base.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 26, 2015, 04:19:48 AM
i can confirm you sux i win
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 26, 2015, 04:20:42 AM
It has yet to be seen.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: John Porno on January 26, 2015, 04:28:02 AM
hey guise my postcount is so low wat can i do bout it
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 26, 2015, 04:31:57 AM
hey guise my postcount is so low wat can i do bout it
use post count generator
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 26, 2015, 04:38:05 AM
hey guise my postcount is so low wat can i do bout it
You can ask me to delete every single post, so that you will look fab.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Komrade on January 26, 2015, 09:42:15 AM
Ban ramon for derailing the thread.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: Myakot on January 26, 2015, 09:42:57 AM
Ban ramon for derailing the thread.
I have no right to do so, and if we follow that logic, practically every single person should get banned ;P.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 26, 2015, 09:53:45 AM
Ban ramon for derailing the thread.

You want him to sneak on the forum too ?
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 26, 2015, 10:02:56 AM
use watchtower
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: naossano on January 26, 2015, 10:05:46 AM
Already have Heartbeat Detector.
Title: Re: 21-01-2015 Changelog
Post by: PusiteGA on January 26, 2015, 04:46:29 PM
Already have Heartbeat Detector.
not about ramon bot i newer saw hartbeat detector in use does it show people in realtim or is it like one thet you go in pipboy and it shows as read mark living people