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Developer Corner / Recon Sneak Balance issue
« on: May 14, 2020, 01:53:43 PM »
2020 Sneak Rework
I will mostly only be talking on the Recon Stealth Boy. My comments will almost not be referred to the other 2 types of Stealth Boys - as I have
a) No experience with them
b) No idea if they are balanced or not
When I first heard about Sneak Rework I was very excited. Because from my point of view. The (now) old Stealth Boy was not quite balanced. Not balanced in the sense that it was quite underwhelming. I mean. Just look at the player count of active sneakers. Right now. I can count 3 people sneaking. I don't know the playstyles of the other 2 guys. But mine was one of a Recon one. My main priority was to gather information for the team.
Not. Shooting. Not backstabbing. Not even much picking off enemies. Just. Plain information gathering.
At first I tried to play on silenced guns. And it worked out pretty well for me. I mean. That too. Was very underpowered.
After countless suggestions to take a Sniper with me. I finally gave in. And to my surprise it was very rewarding! I had a lot more impact to the fight. Not only being able to gather information and position my teammates. But also by finally getting score. Because. Let's face it. Sneaker is probably the most unthankful class to play. With no real way to get money or experience. Not only are you doing no damage, but you also do not get ZC-Score while sneaking.
Still. Sneaker was a very difficult, expensive, and especially depending on your roles in your team, very micromanaging-needed class to play in.
Now let's get into the Recon Stealth Boy.
The Recon Stealth Boy. In it's essence. Is a good idea. But. The execution, especially the balancing is in my opinion just wrong.
There are a lot of factors playing into this. Let's start with a smaller one.
No Auto Resneak when getting shot.
Previously. When you shot yourself. Or got shot at. You got a 5 second Sneak-Penalty. After which you automatically resneaked. Effectively reducing the amount of micromanagement you had to make. Now. This is not possible. And if you get desneaked, you have to actively watch the top right until the cooldown is over, just so you can press "1" again. This not only causes AP-Loss. But forces your character to stop. Both of which were not the case previously. To top it all off. You can not "queue" it. And actually have to wait the whole cooldown only to press "1" right after that.
This just adds another layer of micromanagement to a Sneaker. Which. Let's face it. Probably already has the biggest amount of micromanagement of all classes. Especially if you then slap on multiple roles.
Stealth Boy has to be in Util slot
Personally. Not much of an issue for me. However. I see why this can be a major drawback for a sneaker. Not being able to throw smoke below your feet when shit goes down the drain, just further diminishes the survivability of a sneaker. Now. The Stealth Boy HAS to be in the Util slot. And if you played in a way where usually team-mates could loot you first, they now can not get your Stealth Boy back, since it only drops when you completely die out.
Sneak Value
By far the biggest nerf. Previously. On 9KG. The Sneaker was visible from ~25 Hexes for a character with 100 Hexes vision.
Now. This is just completely and utterly nerfed.
5KG. And you are at 44 Hexes.
5KG - 44Hexes.
You don't even have a gun at this point. Now take a gun, maybe 1 Voodoo. And with
9KG - 76Hexes.
You will have a major drawback. At this point you might very well have no Stealth Boy at all.
Siman has 2 great points for that. First of all.
You have to play around walls
Could be a nice idea. But we do have a problem or two. Not many things in this game are actually considered walls. Some maps outright have no walls to begin with. Let me show you some examples.
All of those things are not considered Walls. And that was just a quick rundown. Imagine how many more things are not considered Walls.
Now. From what I know. It is planned to make every non-passable entity a Wall in Terms of Sneak Value. However. I don't think that will solve the issue. That will just make Infiltrator and Ambush Stealth Boys more powerful. Since you will have a lot more opportunities to boost up your sneak by a free 100%
Not only that. But someone with a Recon Stealth Boy is gathering information for the team. He has to move a lot. He has to scout a lot. He has to check a lot. Walls are not playing into his hands here.
The second point he makes is:
Don't go over X (7 I believe)KG
Well. There we have another essential problem. Sneak Weapons are actually shit. Shit in a sense that. They don't do anything. They are just pea-shooters at this point.
Guns with low range of about 15 Hexes. 0 Damage. And overall a very diminishing return.
When we melt it together with an average Sneaking Value of about 50-60 Hexes on 100Hex. That once again. Just doesn't go hand in hand at all. Like. On one hand you HAVE to stay away from enemies to actually sneak at all. And then you get a gun that shoots 15 Hexes...
Moving removes Sneak Value
Good concept. Once again. Bad execution in my eyes.
As a Scout. You have to move A LOT. This is simply the IDEA of a Scouter. To cover as much ground as possible to check as much places as possible. Figure out the positions of the enemy team. Know where ambushes lay.
I don't want to stand still every 5 seconds just to let my Sneak Value run back to normal value, just to have essential scouting capabilities. That just doesn't go well together in my opinion.
There are probably a lot more points to cover. But. Those are the most important ones for me currently. I hope a solution can be found. I don't know how the other Stealth Boys compare to the Recon one. My first stance was that the Infiltrator might be very powerful. And the Ambush I have mixed feelings. I however can not tell. Those are not Stealth Boys I would use / utilize. Maybe they are fine. Maybe they are not.
I will mostly only be talking on the Recon Stealth Boy. My comments will almost not be referred to the other 2 types of Stealth Boys - as I have
a) No experience with them
b) No idea if they are balanced or not
When I first heard about Sneak Rework I was very excited. Because from my point of view. The (now) old Stealth Boy was not quite balanced. Not balanced in the sense that it was quite underwhelming. I mean. Just look at the player count of active sneakers. Right now. I can count 3 people sneaking. I don't know the playstyles of the other 2 guys. But mine was one of a Recon one. My main priority was to gather information for the team.
Not. Shooting. Not backstabbing. Not even much picking off enemies. Just. Plain information gathering.
At first I tried to play on silenced guns. And it worked out pretty well for me. I mean. That too. Was very underpowered.
After countless suggestions to take a Sniper with me. I finally gave in. And to my surprise it was very rewarding! I had a lot more impact to the fight. Not only being able to gather information and position my teammates. But also by finally getting score. Because. Let's face it. Sneaker is probably the most unthankful class to play. With no real way to get money or experience. Not only are you doing no damage, but you also do not get ZC-Score while sneaking.
Still. Sneaker was a very difficult, expensive, and especially depending on your roles in your team, very micromanaging-needed class to play in.
Now let's get into the Recon Stealth Boy.
The Recon Stealth Boy. In it's essence. Is a good idea. But. The execution, especially the balancing is in my opinion just wrong.
There are a lot of factors playing into this. Let's start with a smaller one.
No Auto Resneak when getting shot.
Previously. When you shot yourself. Or got shot at. You got a 5 second Sneak-Penalty. After which you automatically resneaked. Effectively reducing the amount of micromanagement you had to make. Now. This is not possible. And if you get desneaked, you have to actively watch the top right until the cooldown is over, just so you can press "1" again. This not only causes AP-Loss. But forces your character to stop. Both of which were not the case previously. To top it all off. You can not "queue" it. And actually have to wait the whole cooldown only to press "1" right after that.
This just adds another layer of micromanagement to a Sneaker. Which. Let's face it. Probably already has the biggest amount of micromanagement of all classes. Especially if you then slap on multiple roles.
Stealth Boy has to be in Util slot
Personally. Not much of an issue for me. However. I see why this can be a major drawback for a sneaker. Not being able to throw smoke below your feet when shit goes down the drain, just further diminishes the survivability of a sneaker. Now. The Stealth Boy HAS to be in the Util slot. And if you played in a way where usually team-mates could loot you first, they now can not get your Stealth Boy back, since it only drops when you completely die out.
Sneak Value
By far the biggest nerf. Previously. On 9KG. The Sneaker was visible from ~25 Hexes for a character with 100 Hexes vision.
Now. This is just completely and utterly nerfed.
5KG. And you are at 44 Hexes.
5KG - 44Hexes.
You don't even have a gun at this point. Now take a gun, maybe 1 Voodoo. And with
9KG - 76Hexes.
You will have a major drawback. At this point you might very well have no Stealth Boy at all.
Siman has 2 great points for that. First of all.
You have to play around walls
Could be a nice idea. But we do have a problem or two. Not many things in this game are actually considered walls. Some maps outright have no walls to begin with. Let me show you some examples.
Code: [Select]
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508841680472899584/710547982612693053/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508841680472899584/710548036576739369/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508841680472899584/710548341276147763/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508841680472899584/710548389179424798/unknown.pngAll of those things are not considered Walls. And that was just a quick rundown. Imagine how many more things are not considered Walls.
Now. From what I know. It is planned to make every non-passable entity a Wall in Terms of Sneak Value. However. I don't think that will solve the issue. That will just make Infiltrator and Ambush Stealth Boys more powerful. Since you will have a lot more opportunities to boost up your sneak by a free 100%
Not only that. But someone with a Recon Stealth Boy is gathering information for the team. He has to move a lot. He has to scout a lot. He has to check a lot. Walls are not playing into his hands here.
The second point he makes is:
Don't go over X (7 I believe)KG
Well. There we have another essential problem. Sneak Weapons are actually shit. Shit in a sense that. They don't do anything. They are just pea-shooters at this point.
Guns with low range of about 15 Hexes. 0 Damage. And overall a very diminishing return.
When we melt it together with an average Sneaking Value of about 50-60 Hexes on 100Hex. That once again. Just doesn't go hand in hand at all. Like. On one hand you HAVE to stay away from enemies to actually sneak at all. And then you get a gun that shoots 15 Hexes...
Moving removes Sneak Value
Good concept. Once again. Bad execution in my eyes.
As a Scout. You have to move A LOT. This is simply the IDEA of a Scouter. To cover as much ground as possible to check as much places as possible. Figure out the positions of the enemy team. Know where ambushes lay.
I don't want to stand still every 5 seconds just to let my Sneak Value run back to normal value, just to have essential scouting capabilities. That just doesn't go well together in my opinion.
There are probably a lot more points to cover. But. Those are the most important ones for me currently. I hope a solution can be found. I don't know how the other Stealth Boys compare to the Recon one. My first stance was that the Infiltrator might be very powerful. And the Ambush I have mixed feelings. I however can not tell. Those are not Stealth Boys I would use / utilize. Maybe they are fine. Maybe they are not.
