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[Chirurg]

Hi,
Have you ever suffer from swarm fights? Did your pvp session ever end because enemy faction was greatly outnumbering your forces? Are you tired of fights going 8 vs 14 at some point every night? Or maybe you are just looking for a fair pvp fight with fair vs numbers?

Suggestion:
I suggest adding 4 small town outside of pheonix. Each town would have its own Outpost (PVP map), which cannot be accessed from world map. The town will be controlled by the faction which is in control of its Outpost.

Here are some rules:
Town control can be started only by a designated team from within faction base (similar to our current assignement disposition).
Each town has a minimal and maximal player limit to start the Town Control event (town names are just proposals):
- Glendale: 6 -10 players
- Mesa: 5 - 8 players
- Fountain Hills: 4 - 6 players
- Santa Cruz: 2 - 4 players
If more people try to enlist for town control, it will simply not allow it.
Outpost maps can't be accessed from world map, but corresponding towns can.

Ok so once for example a team of 6 enlisted to take the control over Glendale, they are being transported directly from base (a'la caravan) and the team leader gets to choose whether he wants to enter from NW, NE, SW or SE (possible to scout). Outpost is protected by some faction NPC's and the invading team has to kill the NPC's to start the timer, which shows exact numbers of invaders.
Only then other factions can react, however they also have to enlist for Town Control response with SAME EXACT NUMBER OF PLAYERS. Once a response team is enlisted, they will be also transported directly from base caravan style and the leader can scout and select entrance point.

Fight is until death or desertion. No reinforcements can be supplied. Leaving the outpost via grid drops you on world map and it's impossible to rejoin the fight. Winning team takes over the outpost and the corresponding town. I suggest there are some bonuses from controling each town, like access to rare resources or variety of items in shops, or more caps income. New Town Control event can't be started on that map until all players have left the outpost or possibly after a cooldown of some sort.

It would be more like team deathmatch maps, however I believe it would fit the story and lore better than just having a stray deathmatch maps...

Who would use it the most? Smaller factions, factions that have less players but these prayers tend to be of superior experience and quality. That way even if a faction is swarmed and greatly outnumbered, it would still have a chance to control their fair share of the game world if they are organised and good enough. Fights 6 vs 11 get booring after some time, don't you agree?

Additionally, controlled towns would give opportunities for variety of assignements. Just imagine the possibilities!

Feedback appreciated

[Anza]

We had the exact same suggestion with the XvX hinkley style like a month ago.
I don't like it because you seem to think only numbers matter in a fight. This is wrong as gear and experience are also factors. Moreover, equipment choice is very important, far more than on other Fonlines.
Of course the swarm is real, I don't like to get swarmed either, but I've been to several fights while we could won or at least fight despite being outnumbered, because of decision making, good usage of grenades, good positionning, communication, etc..
There are two issues in your suggestion that are the same as the previous instanced pvp suggestion :
- Core will get even less populated, there are not many core players left (not only because of Reloaded wipe), and you want to make new pvp zones.
- PvP team won't accept casuals or newcomers as they will want the most efficient team and have the enemy has lowest people possible. So what will happen to newbies ? They will go to empty core, get bored, then leave the game, or they will teamup with other newbies to go to instanced pvp and let's face it, they gonna get rekt big time, same conclusion, after some time they will stop.
Again the main thing about faction is to allow new people to join experienced pvp players and learn from them, then become part of the Fonline community. And this is easy only on AoP. I would like AoP to stay THE server casual/noob friendly.
Last thing, when it comes to instanced pvp with low numbers (2-3-4 people), builds variety will disappear. I do love the weapon variety in AoP and I feel like having 2v2 3v3 etc would make full sneak / full melees / camping specialists / etc teams and i'm not sure it would be for the best. For instance, graviton weapons have been implemented and they seem nice, but I don't see them in a 2v2 or 3v3.

Maybe make this suggestion for next season when there will be more people playing. And I'm not saying there is no swarm issues, I'm just saying this suggestion won't help the AoP gameplay experience imo.

[Stem.J.Sunder]

Cant really make an informed decision on your suggestion as I don't know the current state of PvP. My worries with arenas/controllable towns outside the core is that it may damage the population of core goers. Other things too, but i would just be echoing Anza if I typed them here.

Just had to say.

Glendale.
Mesa.
Fountain Hills.
Santa Cruz.

10/10 for using locations in Arizona.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

ANYTHING THAT GIVES EQUAL PVP +10000!!!!!!

However I don't like the idea of adding pve, no pve before you start timer. But I think my suggestion was better with the npc Guy and teleporting to a location to fight equal numbers.

[naossano]

Not fond of the idea involving emptying Phoenix or forcing noobs out of fights, but swarming is indeed one of the issue that prevent the server from being complete.

[Anza]

Open world pvp implies you will have swarm. Even if not all the time, you will have swarm, this is part of the meta in an open pvp. You cannot expect to have same amount of people connected and willing to fight in the opposite team each time. And again number is not everything, if you get that 5v5 instanced pvp, you will start whining about something else for sure.

In all MMOs i've played, there are always people who believe the game has to adapt to their playstyle, and not the opposite.

-> "They are 10 we are 5, no point playing, please nerf swarm"
-> "I dont have t3 weapons, no point playing, please nerf t3"
-> "I can't play more than 1 hour a week / i dont like farming, please nerf hoarding"
-> "I play in EU timezone, please nerf 'night' capping"

I will say it again, and it is not in an aggressive way, but if you cannot stand being outnumbered, why do you play in a open pvp game anyway ? So many free2play instanced pvp games with good graphics out there.

[Chirurg]

We had the exact same suggestion with the XvX hinkley style like a month ago.
I don't like it because you seem to think only numbers matter in a fight. This is wrong as gear and experience are also factors. Moreover, equipment choice is very important, far more than on other Fonlines.
Of course the swarm is real, I don't like to get swarmed either, but I've been to several fights while we could won or at least fight despite being outnumbered, because of decision making, good usage of grenades, good positionning, communication, etc..
There are two issues in your suggestion that are the same as the previous instanced pvp suggestion :
- Core will get even less populated, there are not many core players left (not only because of Reloaded wipe), and you want to make new pvp zones.
- PvP team won't accept casuals or newcomers as they will want the most efficient team and have the enemy has lowest people possible. So what will happen to newbies ? They will go to empty core, get bored, then leave the game, or they will teamup with other newbies to go to instanced pvp and let's face it, they gonna get rekt big time, same conclusion, after some time they will stop.
Again the main thing about faction is to allow new people to join experienced pvp players and learn from them, then become part of the Fonline community. And this is easy only on AoP. I would like AoP to stay THE server casual/noob friendly.
Last thing, when it comes to instanced pvp with low numbers (2-3-4 people), builds variety will disappear. I do love the weapon variety in AoP and I feel like having 2v2 3v3 etc would make full sneak / full melees / camping specialists / etc teams and i'm not sure it would be for the best. For instance, graviton weapons have been implemented and they seem nice, but I don't see them in a 2v2 or 3v3.

Maybe make this suggestion for next season when there will be more people playing. And I'm not saying there is no swarm issues, I'm just saying this suggestion won't help the AoP gameplay experience imo.

I respect your opinion but strongly disagree with the points you made. Of course I do take realise that it's possible and somewhat common to win fights while being outnumbered. Heck even yesterday myself and Data won vs 4 V-tecs. This does not change the fact that fights tend to be hugely unbalanced more often than not, which more often than not causes people to ragequit if their pvp team loses few times in a row mostly because of being in constant disadvantage: AND THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT DECREASES CORE POPULATION.
I believe my suggestion would suffice as an alternative to the common rage-quitting because of pvp numbers imbalances (im not talking about minor imbalances like -/+2 etc). Right now when enemy numbers increase and your team numbers shrink with each fight, it's "the end of PVP for today" - also for people that would still want to continue fighting - Town control would be also an alternative for those people... And also people who simply rather fight in small, manageable teams.

Please read my logic argument: PVP is PVP. Alternative to have participant numbers wise fair PVP = MORE PVP. MORE PVP = Better for game, Better for everyone.

Core population suffers mainly due to uneven faction numbers. You can't argue with that. This suggestion would rather activate slumbering players from lesser faction rather than steal player base from current two dominators - Other factions deserve a chance too!

PS. Please bear in mind that PVP arena maps have been added to the world map. Aren't you scared that these will impact core population? Even if that would be the case and we would face the forseen problem, town control could simply replace deathmatch maps just to make the lore and story more consistent - and game mechanics less... deathmatchy like - It's supposed to be MMO or not?

[FrankenStone]

Dude tbh i dont post about that stuff normally but aop is a pvp server , and fonline is mostly crowded with pvers so what do you expect ...

and to be more honest i dont even liek the idea of outposts but what i really liek is the core itself as replication of an world map ...

many people including me always said that it needs more pve in it , to talk in a language some fonliners understand ... i would like to see core as one big reno area , no bullshit hub or ncr were u are safe ... traders here and there like multiply other options would make this game really unique ... but in end i think people are feared of no safe pvp area , assignments already did proove it ... that most of em prever to do some pve in their holes rather than going into core to kill some stuff ... dont come now with wasteland is harsh while all other servers arent really harsh ... i could go on but fuck it ...

[Chirurg]

Wanna make sure that core population does not suffer from such changes (including the deathmatch map addition)? Let's take it even further and make it worth it to fight specifically within the core.

How? Every 4 hours, the faction shop gets a chance of spawning one T3 gear. The % chance depends on the number of zones controlled. Base chance 32% +3% per zone controlled up to 95%. Items will not spawn if your faction did not participate in core PVP (total amount of 20K fighting exp was not gathered from the fights). That way faction would still strive to cap zones. Mechanics abuse due to night cappers would be limited due to fighting EXP requirement. People are encouraged to actually fight within the core.

This suggestion could be still tweaked but right now there's no real pressure on capping core zones or participating in core pvp other than for PVP itself.

And no. It's not about game adjusting to niche player "style". It's about making the game more healthy and enjoyable. If something is not broken you don't repair it but if it obviously causes trouble it's our responsibility to suggest improvements. I don't mind swarms and I'm always the first to fight - even when outnumbered, but my pvp sessions end before I want them to due to other people complaining and quitting. I like a challenge but no, I will not fucking go 2 vs 6+ because that's just suicide and nothing more and nothing fun about it.

[Anza]

You did not understand what i wrote, you are basically saying I want fair pvp, with equal numbers.
What you do not understand is that when you have 5v5, there are still factors that can make a team dominate the other, and you dont want to take that into account. Thinking you would go again and again after losing against the same team 5v5 is wrong, you would not, you would do as you do now : "the end of PVP for today".

Swarm is an issue indeed, however it is not 100% of the pvp balance so no you wont fix pvp balance by doing instanced pvp.

The team deathmatch events are nice imo because you do not choose your team. So you have to team up with whoever gets in your team, including casuals/newcomers.

Your last suggestion is actually way better and though it needs to be polished, adding xp won factor during ZC can be a good thing to avoid empty capping etc.

[FrankenStone]

Wanna make sure that core population does not suffer from such changes (including the deathmatch map addition)? Let's take it even further and make it worth it to fight specifically within the core.

How? Every 4 hours, the faction shop gets a chance of spawning one T3 gear. The % chance depends on the number of zones controlled. Base chance 32% +3% per zone controlled up to 95%. Items will not spawn if your faction did not participate in core PVP (total amount of 20K fighting exp was not gathered from the fights). That way faction would still strive to cap zones. Mechanics abuse due to night cappers would be limited due to fighting EXP requirement. People are encouraged to actually fight within the core.

This suggestion could be still tweaked but right now there's no real pressure on capping core zones or participating in core pvp other than for PVP itself.

And no. It's not about game adjusting to niche player "style". It's about making the game more healthy and enjoyable. If something is not broken you don't repair it but if it obviously causes trouble it's our responsibility to suggest improvements. I don't mind swarms and I'm always the first to fight - even when outnumbered, but my pvp sessions end before I want them to due to other people complaining and quitting. I like a challenge but no, I will not fucking go 2 vs 6+ because that's just suicide and nothing more and nothing fun about it.

i had most the fun while being outnumbered most the time , just make sure u go with right people ... we even managed to make em flee when i was only with my nigga against 6+ , plus your t3 suggestion sounds boring ...

suggest something more thought out like controlling zone with timewindows other requirements like rare spawn from that are or something like dat not just simple exp requirement ...

[Anza]

But exp requirement is a good basis to work on to make controlling zones more attractive 
It would help avoiding empty capping (due to late hour or swarm). Of course it would need to be thought of more, how to avoid people leaving zone so the one capping get no reward for instance etc

[Teela]

Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.

Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary %  over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.

I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.

[MARXMAN]

Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.

Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary %  over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.

I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.

Fuckin this.  ^


I have never seen an MG42 in AoP yet. Lost forever in lootpiles of people.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Plenty of T3 and legendaries on server to have every and all battle from today until wipe be fought with only T3 and legendaries. Problem is 99% is stuck in russian lootpiles and the other 1% doesn't see much play due to fears of them being lost in said lootpiles.

Not on topic at all. But it has been suggested to have legendaries lose legendary %  over time. This and a similar mechanic for tier 3 would mean that stuff would at least see play.

I have access to a small inventory of tier 3 gear but i'm scared to use it because once i do it will be lost forever gathering dust.

Ill never see Hailey's gun again

[naossano]

In all MMOs i've played, there are always people who believe the game has to adapt to their playstyle, and not the opposite.

-> "They are 10 we are 5, no point playing, please nerf swarm"
-> "I dont have t3 weapons, no point playing, please nerf t3"
-> "I can't play more than 1 hour a week / i dont like farming, please nerf hoarding"
-> "I play in EU timezone, please nerf 'night' capping"

What you qualify as convenience fix are actual flaws that can be fixed to attract a fair number of player.
Even night capping could be fixed (as long as it is actual night capping. People that purposly take advantage of the lack of opponements to take zones)

Point 2. and 3. are already fixed by having balanced gear, easily available even for casuals, and more involved allies to cover your ass. (or yell at you, but you can still turn off TS/mumble and ignore them)

It is not because the dev were too lazy in the previous server you visited that those flaws were features.

[Anza]

I think you need to read before replying Nao 

[Chirurg]

You did not understand what i wrote, you are basically saying I want fair pvp, with equal numbers.
What you do not understand is that when you have 5v5, there are still factors that can make a team dominate the other, and you dont want to take that into account. Thinking you would go again and again after losing against the same team 5v5 is wrong, you would not, you would do as you do now : "the end of PVP for today".

The other factors are: gear, skill, cooperation. These are HEALTHY factors that can influence your win chance against opposing team. If your example 5 vs 5 team keeps loosing there are following options: Get better, start using your legendaries / get better gear, improve your tactic. All healthy factors.

What are your options for contantly losing due to team size disadvantage (+4 for example)? Get more people to join your team and that's not really possible given that we have limited number of active players in each faction. And yeah you could reach for: using better gear or improving tactics, but I wanna see you risking your legendaries to fight in huge disadventage just to have a slim chance or getting your small team so good that it can beat an army of players twice its size.

PVP is never fully fair because if it was, it would be 50% win ratio each time. But there are healthy factors (skill level, team communication and tactics) that tip the scales in your favor and unhealthy that just make people powerless (wanting to PVP but being outnumbered 2:1 for most fights for example).

So just to clarify: Having Town Outpost Control or any other lore friendly instanced PVP as an ALTERNATIVE to core fights would in my opinion just encourage players to stay IN THE GAME instead of logging out once each evening it reaches a point where PVP becomes hopeless.
Just make it a prefered option to cap core zones over town zones due to rewards / prestige / whatever and we have a healthy symbiotic relationship between two forms of PVP.

[Anza]

Ok that's good, you know agree that there are other factors than numbers. And while I do agree the other factors are healthy as you say, people might not share your point of view. If some people enjoy improving their skills, and search for new tactics, some people might not.

Let's say you are playing with your team on the Lawyer mumble. You have voice communication advantage over people who cant use that for whatever reasons (wife, no mic, etc). So it is unfair that you can use that and not others right ? Moreover this is a third party program to gain advantage on the game, isnt it even more unfair ? To your eyes no, but to people who cant use voice communication it might.

So again, I am saying you are forcing your way of playing to others and that is the bad thing, and I say that even if I share your playstyle point of view. This is a MMO, open pvp, and it works on a lot of games. People find how to counter numbers on those games, and even if there are always people upset about that (no exception here), this is the gameplay of an open pvp game. Why not test an instanced mmo ? If numbers matter that much to you, at least give it a try. I do say that without any ill thought back.

Also again, in the current playerbase state, having another place to pvp will empty the core even more, I still dont think it is a great idea.

[paragon]

The other factors are: gear, skill, cooperation. These are HEALTHY factors that can influence your win chance against opposing team. If your example 5 vs 5 team keeps loosing there are following options: Get better, start using your legendaries / get better gear, improve your tactic. All healthy factors.

I don't consider your "get better gear" to be any healthy for me.
It's much preferable for me to spend time recruiting, than to farm for better gear.
Some players have more time they spend in game in whole - having ability to get better gear over people who instead have more friends. And more skill.
As a result, I don't see how "having a lot of friends" is not healthy.

Good games I know let you to kill swarms being alone. E.g. my kill-death ratio in insurgency is often 4:1.

My experience shows that it is possible in AOP. I've seen 1 melee killing 4 people 2 times in the building yesterday. I'd bet Windrunner team can pretty much 5v10 of casual v-tec players.

All those are not points to claim that arena is not needed.
But as uncontrollable unpublic area, arena should not increment the amount of resources available in the open word by any means. Means, being rewardless.