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Author Topic: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free  (Read 44558 times)

paragon

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Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« on: September 01, 2015, 04:11:38 AM »

Currently rerolls are free. And we love it.
Rerolls is ability to rebuild your character from the scratch, changing its gameplay characteristics like traits, SPECIAL, skill tags, skills and perks

From the members of the group "No Name Yet Team" with nicknames Cirn0 and John Porno it's known that "soon" rerolls are going to have a cost. They haven't clearly decided on the exact terms and the cost, but in any case this situation and its future has critical significance since now.

As a person interested in the future of the game, its playability and widespread playerbase, I'm taking a mission to defend an ability of every player to have an access to free rerolls in any time and amount.

This thread will be the information center for everyone willing to unite to face and fight back the theoretically possible end of the game as we know it, aka purchasable rerolls.

Anyone willing to sign up the petition should post anything in this thread, thus I'll be able to officially add him to the list.

Later in this thread I will post detailed analysis of the problem and reports of the situation.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 05:14:04 AM by paragon »
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paragon

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 04:13:07 AM »

Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free is a free open player petition, directed to the game developers and everyone who can affect the situation, for the sake of keeping rerolls free of the charge.

"Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free" sign up sheet:
1. paragon
2. clochard
3. RazorRamon
4. Combatant
5. twat
6. Niamak
7. naossano
8. mafiapl (hellmai)
9. Count Matthew
10. cirn0
11. MARXMAN
13. Stem Sunders
14. S.T.A.L.K.E.R
15. Wipe
16. mAdman
17. Kurwier
18. Teela
19. Shangalar
20. John Porno
[21. it could be YOU! Just. Write. In the thread.]
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 02:20:21 PM by free rerolls man »
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clochard

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 09:50:09 AM »

Agree.
But: only permit reroll inside hq.
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RazorRamon

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 10:19:54 AM »

As someone that enjoys high level pvp i have to sign this.
Imagine you're playing with your team, and some important member, lets say the minigunner has to leave. Right now, you can easily fill in the gap with a free reroll and fix the teams composition. Should that change in the future, people will think twice before paying for their reroll. We'll see less specialized builds that keep the game interesting, instead you'll get streamlined builds that are decent at multiple things but not really good at that special something.

-> Paid rerolls would only serve to make PVP worse.


It also keeps in line with the 'you shouldn't have to PVE to be able to PVP' philosophy.
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paragon

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 10:40:54 AM »

Some of the drawbacks of making rerolls purchasable:

1. We love to play different roles and try new things in general. Though our builds do not depend only on what we want to play. It's a team pvp game and we need to adjust our builds for builds for current players in our team and current players in enemy team in the same time. If it's Sunday or our day off and we play for the whole day, the situation might change 5 times during it, and we'll have to play from long to short range, from organised to random team or even lonely. If enemy will get some current character builds or roles combination advantage, often the only efficient way to confront is to change own team loadout==builds. It will be lost.

2. Ability to switch the role for free gives us the flexibility to play in almost any type of situations we face. Just because we can adjust for gear we don't care to lose. Or even reroll for pve instead. But we will still stay in game instead of waiting for a better chance. It will be lost.

3. Tactically we can surprise using free rerolls. Once appearing as full-range squad, next time we can come full-melee and get enemy the way he doesn't expect. It's just an obvious example, but overall free rerolls gives us ability to improve our gameplay right away in gaining tactical advantage over enemy. No scissors-paper-stones! It will be lost.

4. We learn from each time we reroll. We discover about the game mechanics by actually trying it instead of crying on the forums that "some class is op". We can make mistakes and learn from them instantly, providing insurance that we will want to test our new builds on the enemy right away. And it will be lost.

5. Ability to reroll decreases the need to grind. We are here for better things. We hate repeatedly clicking the same places to prepare for the real fun - pvp! So each time we run out of our typical gear, we can just reroll for different and get our typical from the combat.

6. To say the truth, it's well known that many things in the game are poorly balanced for quite a long time. Rerolls are giving us ability to avoid developers' "traps-mistakes" and discover the meta as fast as possible. Thus it gives feedback about balance much faster, letting us all play balanced game much faster.

7. Mayor grind-to-play fonline servers have significant cost for each reroll made. They have their reasons, and common experienced player might even defend it, because it will significantly slow the new players in their development and will give him ability to dominate. We are proud that we are better than that and can have such advantage over typical grinders.

...

And that's only part of it.

Sign up petition today and keep in touch to get more information about our sacred war for our rights on free rerolls.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 10:43:51 AM by paragon »
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Combatant

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 10:45:49 AM »

rerolls are going to have a cost
Why? Then, let's also make every new character forced to pay 10000 zc money after he join faction. So he becomes slave for current faction and doing ZC "for free" until 10000 will be payed from earned money. Just, you know, why not? And let's add paid entrance for rooms and platoon base. And so on.
Let's put it all in the hell hole like Fonline: Requiem or Fonline: TLA mk2. Let's just farm money for 3-4 rerolls per day, it's so amazing! I do like farm shit, that's why I playing arena-type Fonline instead of "Fallout 2 map" projects with caravan-farming and hard-to-find good gear. *sarcasm*
I like AoP for most comfortable PvP ever at the first place. And rerolls playing a significant role in it.
 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 10:48:55 AM by Combatant »
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twat

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 11:56:16 AM »

TLDR.... FUCK REROLLS I HATE THEM. please allow the removal of at least half of the reroll. changing traits and tags is lame and does not add to the game.  If you want to use COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUILDS then make a new fucking toon and level it up. If you want to be able to change weps then BUILD YOUR CHARACTER THAT WAY YOU FUCKING MUNCHKIN FLOWERS.  I cannot use enough expletives here. !@#$%^&*() so weak when a vet rerolls.

free rerolls until level 24. FUCK  YOU FLOWERS TRYING TO REROLL LIKE IT IS A LEGIT GAME MECHANIC

edit: cost = one experience level
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:45:17 AM by twat »
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Niamak

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 03:44:00 PM »

Sounds like you are putting the cart before the horse.

1. From what I understand,  AOP is not going for the full arena experience. Devs want season to be like attrition warfare and last standing faction is the winner. Ressources should matter and for that you need at least a pseudo economy. Having paid rerolls is an easy way to regulate everything. It reduces gear usability (have fun using those shotguns with your sniper build). Obviously it creates an easy money sink (game economy 101). In short, it makes things easier to balance in the bigger picture.

2. It is an easy way to discourage abuses.
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naossano

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 05:59:23 PM »

You should make a poll for that.

My opinion on this is that the reroll should have a cost, but a reasonable cost so that a casual loner should be able to gather it in less than a week. (i am probably wrong about the number, but let's say 5000 caps)

If the guy really think he should adapt his build from time to time, he should be able to do it. On the other hand, there shouldn't be 10 reroll the same night or even during a fight. It seems like abuse.

Also, there should be one free reroll for each new character and an additionnal one free reroll after each major changelog.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 04:08:10 AM by naossano »
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paragon

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 07:55:41 AM »

Now that I explained how much will be lost without free rerolls, let's discuss the reason to introduce it at all.

I asked Cirn0 "Why", he said he would have thought about it and never answered back.
One of the obvious reasons you can see is such called "economics".

Let's be honest, the amount of the bugs/features/events which made current economics completely broken is huge, some of them haven't been fixed yet, although known for months. Not to mention that developers said something like "We threw paper planes with item names down the stairs and the further they got, the higher the price was set". Not to blame anyone or anything, but incoming "tier progression system" just can't be balanced economically soon enough, while old bugs still gives you free money, old economy never was close to be balanced or at least stable and the system in whole is highly abusable.

There are thousands of different controls to balance the economy besides purchasable rerolls, the reroll by itself won't even be used in the combat, it's not a thing you can directly use to play. It by its nature is much closer to the information, which shouldn't be sold to players or hidden from them.

Basically, there are 2 ways players could or will have to go, depending on rerolls are free or not. Spending time grinding, preparing new characters, or playing 1 character and rerolling it adjusting to the situation. And multi-charating is just bad for so many reasons.

We played without rerolls for quite a long time, we played for a long with partials rerolls. Many of my friends spent most of the time grinding in levelling, creating new characters to figure out build science and gear balance. I don't think that anyone would like to do that again, after we realised that we can just play and just have fun. When we had no free rerolls, the question "when new rerolls available" was one of the main in IRC channel as the game was never balanced, but it stopped to matter as soon as full free rerolls were introduced.

So, why? And more importantly, does it really worth it all the benefits? Or is it just another "too lazy" excuse?..

...

Later we will talk of the cost of introducing purchasable rerolls.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 08:06:31 AM by paragon »
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Niamak

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 10:14:54 AM »

If economy is broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it.

Paid reroll alone isn't going to fix the entire economy but it is one of those much needed money sink.

Paid reroll can be easily adjusted in price if too expensive/cheap maybe even made free later on if needed but free unlimited reroll would meet a strong opposition if changed to paid.

As you put a value on rerolls, it would encourage players to think more carefully about builds and try to use good ones.

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Combatant

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 10:20:51 AM »

We played without rerolls for quite a long time, we played for a long with partials rerolls. Many of my friends spent most of the time grinding in levelling, creating new characters to figure out build science and gear balance. I don't think that anyone would like to do that again, after we realised that we can just play and just have fun
Also I think this future update is simply about "how to bother players" so we gotta spend more time in game while creating new characters or farming money for reroll. And after wipe people anyway will try server's changes. Perfect time for little "addition" like that so players gotta stick to it if they want try AoP. But yeah, people, who played it with rerolls for a very long time may be disappointed.
It kinda same with "you gotta pay 16000 in Counter-Strike if wanna change side from T on CT and back" (my imagination). In this example players also gotta spend more time in game and earn money for using game option, which was free before. I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing. 
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John Porno

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 10:33:21 AM »

I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing.
And I'm wondering why people think they are entitled to a "feature" that was nothing more than a required bugfix which then was made fur because of the state of the current playerbase. We have said it often enough, that pretty much since new years eve, the devteam have been looking at this current session as more of a test session. What comes with a "test" is the notion of ignoring immersion and just putting things out there for testing, without much polish.

Changing your build by typing /reroll does not fit into a proper game. That said, the gameplay implications of this have been noted, but there is more to it than that. You cant build a working and enjoyable game out of 100% fanservice, just like every game gets boring once you start cheating. Free rerolls by typing /reroll is too far on that side imo, and I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.
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Niamak

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 11:02:01 AM »

Porno fell into the trap of signing the petition topkek.
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mafiapl

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 11:41:08 AM »

Sign up, hellmai.
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Count Matthew

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 12:30:07 PM »

I'm with John here. Free rerolls is a luxury that we have while the game is in test mod.

500caps or 2k experince is perfectly reasonable.

And I think as combatant noted. Having to spend that little bit more time in game to get that reroll desired could work in favour of player numbers.

I decline the petition.
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cirn0

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 12:37:27 PM »

I'm still thinking about it but my original feeling towards the matter is pretty much what John has said. The re-roll changes have not been drafted so I wouldn't worry about this right about now until something solid is decided first. Discussion on what you think is fair is actually good.

Mostly I agree with Paragon.

I actually sat and thought about it. I just had a personal prejudice about players who will meta via re-rolling instead of working to find a solution. I think I just wanted players to "gitgud" but re-rolls doesn't necessarily stop or encourage it. At the end of the day its the player not the mechanic.

Rerolls have been a crutch for both the developers and the players in dealing with the changes. The joke is that if we developers do our job right it won't be a necessity. But it is clear we're a reroller coaster and practicality of the feature triumphs over ideals and egos.

Possible solutions:
Perhaps introduction of character states to save a couple of predefined roles is in order.
Say up to 3 per character, and if you want to rewrite one you have to pay.
Of course pay for each slot and only available in your HQ.
The one click re-roll you want with the limited rerolling I want.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 01:38:45 PM by cirn0 »
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MARXMAN

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 01:15:03 PM »

FUCK rerolling.

I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity.  Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't. 

Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:

"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."

"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."

"Everyone reroll to Z" 


And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount.  Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
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Count Matthew

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2015, 01:23:11 PM »

FUCK rerolling.

I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity.  Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't. 

Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:

"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."

"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."

"Everyone reroll to Z" 


And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount.  Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.

Well put.
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S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2015, 02:16:59 PM »

FUCK rerolling.

I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity.  Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't. 

Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:

"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."

"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."

"Everyone reroll to Z" 


And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount.  Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
The characters you create are utter shit.

Free rerolls have to stay.
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