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Currently rerolls are free. And we love it.
Rerolls is ability to rebuild your character from the scratch, changing its gameplay characteristics like traits, SPECIAL, skill tags, skills and perks
From the members of the group "No Name Yet Team" with nicknames Cirn0 (http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=102) and John Porno (http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4) it's known that "soon" rerolls are going to have a cost. They haven't clearly decided on the exact terms and the cost, but in any case this situation and its future has critical significance since now.
As a person interested in the future of the game, its playability and widespread playerbase, I'm taking a mission to defend an ability of every player to have an access to free rerolls in any time and amount.
This thread will be the information center for everyone willing to unite to face and fight back the theoretically possible end of the game as we know it, aka purchasable rerolls.
Anyone willing to sign up the petition should post anything in this thread, thus I'll be able to officially add him to the list.
Later in this thread I will post detailed analysis of the problem and reports of the situation.
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Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free is a free open player petition, directed to the game developers and everyone who can affect the situation, for the sake of keeping rerolls free of the charge.
"Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free" sign up sheet:
1. paragon
2. clochard
3. RazorRamon
4. Combatant
5. twat
6. Niamak
7. naossano
8. mafiapl (hellmai)
9. Count Matthew
10. cirn0
11. MARXMAN
13. Stem Sunders
14. S.T.A.L.K.E.R
15. Wipe
16. mAdman
17. Kurwier
18. Teela
19. Shangalar
20. John Porno
[21. it could be YOU! Just. Write. In the thread.]
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Agree.
But: only permit reroll inside hq.
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As someone that enjoys high level pvp i have to sign this.
Imagine you're playing with your team, and some important member, lets say the minigunner has to leave. Right now, you can easily fill in the gap with a free reroll and fix the teams composition. Should that change in the future, people will think twice before paying for their reroll. We'll see less specialized builds that keep the game interesting, instead you'll get streamlined builds that are decent at multiple things but not really good at that special something.
-> Paid rerolls would only serve to make PVP worse.
It also keeps in line with the 'you shouldn't have to PVE to be able to PVP' philosophy.
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Some of the drawbacks of making rerolls purchasable:
1. We love to play different roles and try new things in general. Though our builds do not depend only on what we want to play. It's a team pvp game and we need to adjust our builds for builds for current players in our team and current players in enemy team in the same time. If it's Sunday or our day off and we play for the whole day, the situation might change 5 times during it, and we'll have to play from long to short range, from organised to random team or even lonely. If enemy will get some current character builds or roles combination advantage, often the only efficient way to confront is to change own team loadout==builds. It will be lost.
2. Ability to switch the role for free gives us the flexibility to play in almost any type of situations we face. Just because we can adjust for gear we don't care to lose. Or even reroll for pve instead. But we will still stay in game instead of waiting for a better chance. It will be lost.
3. Tactically we can surprise using free rerolls. Once appearing as full-range squad, next time we can come full-melee and get enemy the way he doesn't expect. It's just an obvious example, but overall free rerolls gives us ability to improve our gameplay right away in gaining tactical advantage over enemy. No scissors-paper-stones! It will be lost.
4. We learn from each time we reroll. We discover about the game mechanics by actually trying it instead of crying on the forums that "some class is op". We can make mistakes and learn from them instantly, providing insurance that we will want to test our new builds on the enemy right away. And it will be lost.
5. Ability to reroll decreases the need to grind. We are here for better things. We hate repeatedly clicking the same places to prepare for the real fun - pvp! So each time we run out of our typical gear, we can just reroll for different and get our typical from the combat.
6. To say the truth, it's well known that many things in the game are poorly balanced for quite a long time. Rerolls are giving us ability to avoid developers' "traps-mistakes" and discover the meta as fast as possible. Thus it gives feedback about balance much faster, letting us all play balanced game much faster.
7. Mayor grind-to-play fonline servers have significant cost for each reroll made. They have their reasons, and common experienced player might even defend it, because it will significantly slow the new players in their development and will give him ability to dominate. We are proud that we are better than that and can have such advantage over typical grinders.
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And that's only part of it.
Sign up petition today and keep in touch to get more information about our sacred war for our rights on free rerolls.
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rerolls are going to have a cost
Why? Then, let's also make every new character forced to pay 10000 zc money after he join faction. So he becomes slave for current faction and doing ZC "for free" until 10000 will be payed from earned money. Just, you know, why not? And let's add paid entrance for rooms and platoon base. And so on.
Let's put it all in the hell hole like Fonline: Requiem or Fonline: TLA mk2. Let's just farm money for 3-4 rerolls per day, it's so amazing! I do like farm shit, that's why I playing arena-type Fonline instead of "Fallout 2 map" projects with caravan-farming and hard-to-find good gear. *sarcasm*
I like AoP for most comfortable PvP ever at the first place. And rerolls playing a significant role in it.
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TLDR.... FUCK REROLLS I HATE THEM. please allow the removal of at least half of the reroll. changing traits and tags is lame and does not add to the game. If you want to use COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUILDS then make a new fucking toon and level it up. If you want to be able to change weps then BUILD YOUR CHARACTER THAT WAY YOU FUCKING MUNCHKIN FLOWERS. I cannot use enough expletives here. !@#$%^&*() so weak when a vet rerolls.
free rerolls until level 24. FUCK YOU FLOWERS TRYING TO REROLL LIKE IT IS A LEGIT GAME MECHANIC
edit: cost = one experience level
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Sounds like you are putting the cart before the horse.
1. From what I understand, AOP is not going for the full arena experience. Devs want season to be like attrition warfare and last standing faction is the winner. Ressources should matter and for that you need at least a pseudo economy. Having paid rerolls is an easy way to regulate everything. It reduces gear usability (have fun using those shotguns with your sniper build). Obviously it creates an easy money sink (game economy 101). In short, it makes things easier to balance in the bigger picture.
2. It is an easy way to discourage abuses.
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You should make a poll for that.
My opinion on this is that the reroll should have a cost, but a reasonable cost so that a casual loner should be able to gather it in less than a week. (i am probably wrong about the number, but let's say 5000 caps)
If the guy really think he should adapt his build from time to time, he should be able to do it. On the other hand, there shouldn't be 10 reroll the same night or even during a fight. It seems like abuse.
Also, there should be one free reroll for each new character and an additionnal one free reroll after each major changelog.
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Now that I explained how much will be lost without free rerolls, let's discuss the reason to introduce it at all.
I asked Cirn0 "Why", he said he would have thought about it and never answered back.
One of the obvious reasons you can see is such called "economics".
Let's be honest, the amount of the bugs/features/events which made current economics completely broken is huge, some of them haven't been fixed yet, although known for months. Not to mention that developers said something like "We threw paper planes with item names down the stairs and the further they got, the higher the price was set". Not to blame anyone or anything, but incoming "tier progression system" just can't be balanced economically soon enough, while old bugs still gives you free money, old economy never was close to be balanced or at least stable and the system in whole is highly abusable.
There are thousands of different controls to balance the economy besides purchasable rerolls, the reroll by itself won't even be used in the combat, it's not a thing you can directly use to play. It by its nature is much closer to the information, which shouldn't be sold to players or hidden from them.
Basically, there are 2 ways players could or will have to go, depending on rerolls are free or not. Spending time grinding, preparing new characters, or playing 1 character and rerolling it adjusting to the situation. And multi-charating is just bad for so many reasons.
We played without rerolls for quite a long time, we played for a long with partials rerolls. Many of my friends spent most of the time grinding in levelling, creating new characters to figure out build science and gear balance. I don't think that anyone would like to do that again, after we realised that we can just play and just have fun. When we had no free rerolls, the question "when new rerolls available" was one of the main in IRC channel as the game was never balanced, but it stopped to matter as soon as full free rerolls were introduced.
So, why? And more importantly, does it really worth it all the benefits? Or is it just another "too lazy" excuse?..
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Later we will talk of the cost of introducing purchasable rerolls.
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If economy is broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it.
Paid reroll alone isn't going to fix the entire economy but it is one of those much needed money sink.
Paid reroll can be easily adjusted in price if too expensive/cheap maybe even made free later on if needed but free unlimited reroll would meet a strong opposition if changed to paid.
As you put a value on rerolls, it would encourage players to think more carefully about builds and try to use good ones.
https://youtu.be/W39TtF14i8I
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We played without rerolls for quite a long time, we played for a long with partials rerolls. Many of my friends spent most of the time grinding in levelling, creating new characters to figure out build science and gear balance. I don't think that anyone would like to do that again, after we realised that we can just play and just have fun
Also I think this future update is simply about "how to bother players" so we gotta spend more time in game while creating new characters or farming money for reroll. And after wipe people anyway will try server's changes. Perfect time for little "addition" like that so players gotta stick to it if they want try AoP. But yeah, people, who played it with rerolls for a very long time may be disappointed.
It kinda same with "you gotta pay 16000 in Counter-Strike if wanna change side from T on CT and back" (my imagination). In this example players also gotta spend more time in game and earn money for using game option, which was free before. I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing.
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I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing.
And I'm wondering why people think they are entitled to a "feature" that was nothing more than a required bugfix which then was made fur because of the state of the current playerbase. We have said it often enough, that pretty much since new years eve, the devteam have been looking at this current session as more of a test session. What comes with a "test" is the notion of ignoring immersion and just putting things out there for testing, without much polish.
Changing your build by typing /reroll does not fit into a proper game. That said, the gameplay implications of this have been noted, but there is more to it than that. You cant build a working and enjoyable game out of 100% fanservice, just like every game gets boring once you start cheating. Free rerolls by typing /reroll is too far on that side imo, and I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.
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Porno fell into the trap of signing the petition topkek.
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Sign up, hellmai.
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I'm with John here. Free rerolls is a luxury that we have while the game is in test mod.
500caps or 2k experince is perfectly reasonable.
And I think as combatant noted. Having to spend that little bit more time in game to get that reroll desired could work in favour of player numbers.
I decline the petition.
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I'm still thinking about it but my original feeling towards the matter is pretty much what John has said. The re-roll changes have not been drafted so I wouldn't worry about this right about now until something solid is decided first. Discussion on what you think is fair is actually good.
Mostly I agree with Paragon.
I actually sat and thought about it. I just had a personal prejudice about players who will meta via re-rolling instead of working to find a solution. I think I just wanted players to "gitgud" but re-rolls doesn't necessarily stop or encourage it. At the end of the day its the player not the mechanic.
Rerolls have been a crutch for both the developers and the players in dealing with the changes. The joke is that if we developers do our job right it won't be a necessity. But it is clear we're a reroller coaster and practicality of the feature triumphs over ideals and egos.
Possible solutions:
Perhaps introduction of character states to save a couple of predefined roles is in order.
Say up to 3 per character, and if you want to rewrite one you have to pay.
Of course pay for each slot and only available in your HQ.
The one click re-roll you want with the limited rerolling I want.
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FUCK rerolling.
I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity. Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't.
Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:
"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."
"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."
"Everyone reroll to Z"
And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount. Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
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FUCK rerolling.
I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity. Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't.
Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:
"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."
"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."
"Everyone reroll to Z"
And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount. Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
Well put.
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FUCK rerolling.
I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity. Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't.
Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:
"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."
"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."
"Everyone reroll to Z"
And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount. Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
The characters you create are utter shit.
Free rerolls have to stay.
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FUCK rerolling.
I love it as a feature, its very useful, but fuck it for the fact that players treat it like a neccesity. Some players want people to reroll every other fucking battle and will bitch and moan if they don't.
Basically, every post battle discussion goes like this:
"We lost to x because of y, we need more counters against x."
"Z here works really well in those situations, and it seems the enemy is engaging in x a lot."
"Everyone reroll to Z"
And I get pissed because I'm fucking tired of feeling like any character I create isn't good enough. Not only that but its a real pain in the ass to stock every single type of weapon at base, not just the onces you use. I'm all for making it cost a good amount. Complete removal would suck though, it is nice to be able to change something when you see that you screwed up.
I'm with John here. Free rerolls is a luxury that we have while the game is in test mod.
500caps or 2k experince is perfectly reasonable.
And I think as combatant noted. Having to spend that little bit more time in game to get that reroll desired could work in favour of player numbers.
I decline the petition.
I wondering, why rerolls become free if you planned make them only for pay at the end.. handmade source of arguing.
And I'm wondering why people think they are entitled to a "feature" that was nothing more than a required bugfix which then was made fur because of the state of the current playerbase. We have said it often enough, that pretty much since new years eve, the devteam have been looking at this current session as more of a test session. What comes with a "test" is the notion of ignoring immersion and just putting things out there for testing, without much polish.
Changing your build by typing /reroll does not fit into a proper game. That said, the gameplay implications of this have been noted, but there is more to it than that. You cant build a working and enjoyable game out of 100% fanservice, just like every game gets boring once you start cheating. Free rerolls by typing /reroll is too far on that side imo, and I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.
If economy is broken, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it.
Paid reroll alone isn't going to fix the entire economy but it is one of those much needed money sink.
Paid reroll can be easily adjusted in price if too expensive/cheap maybe even made free later on if needed but free unlimited reroll would meet a strong opposition if changed to paid.
As you put a value on rerolls, it would encourage players to think more carefully about builds and try to use good ones.
https://youtu.be/W39TtF14i8I
After these there isn't much left I would say on the matter. What Marxman said is interesting. Recently (whenever I play) I spend more time Re-rolling my char then actually using him. strangely, I felt more viable and "needed" as a character that couldn't re-roll. Teams used to have actual rolls to play, with all the bonuses and drawbacks that entails.
It was kinda like.
"You need someone to spam?...Better take Marxman."
"You need someone to sneak?...Better take Ramon."
"You need someone to tank that damage?...Better take Obelix"
"You need someone to see enemy traps?...Better take Stem."
Now its like...
You need someone to spam?....Hang on a tick while I re-roll...
You need someone to sneak....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to tank that damage....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to see enemy traps...Hang on while devs make traps viable...:P
I'm trying to see it as a good thing that should stay...Maybe Ill change my mine but...
-1 to Free-Rolls
@Niamak, Respect for using Extra Credits as a reference.
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Glad you all signed up.
Now short answers:
1. Playing different classes are fun -> Rerolls are fun.
2. If your team sucks, or you suck personally, then there's no surprise you're asked to reroll in any of this cases. "I can't reroll, it's so hard and make me think"... Change team or get better.
3. Playing useful/different class will at least teach you something which might improve you. I played all classes and only during/after it became a strong player in aop.
4. Not be able to reroll is like to buy sniper rifle in cs and be able to buy only sniper rifles until you create new account. And grind to get back your rank to be able to play at the level you can and should play again.
5. Real team-play is only available with class combination. Players are flexible. They log in and log off but you still have to keep correct combination. Faggot toilet-camping alike gameplay when you need to reroll to certain class cuz they are best for that situation is an obvious exception example but you can't fix faggots.
6. Most of players stockpile all equipment they get and never actually use it because they are playing the same bluesuite anyway. You can't fix hamsters.
7. Grinding doesn't increase amount of people playing competitive PvP, probably it's even directly opposite.
ok, i'm actually tired.
I wanted to make it half-troll, but I'm getting too serious.
I personally just know what kind of game I want to play, and one of its first principles is accessibility of all gameplay opportunities with minimum of need to do things in game you don't want to do. I understand the meaning of economics balance, though rerolls in my opinion should be out of it, as one of the best gameplay mechanics available for adjusting to the game.
But this game is not designed by me.
kthxbye
P.S. if anyone can to keep the sign uped list up-to-date, pls do.
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Aww, i'm late :'(
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It was kinda like.
"You need someone to spam?...Better take Marxman."
"You need someone to sneak?...Better take Ramon."
"You need someone to tank that damage?...Better take Obelix"
"You need someone to see enemy traps?...Better take Stem."
Now its like...
You need someone to spam?....Hang on a tick while I re-roll...
You need someone to sneak....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to tank that damage....Hang on a tick while I re-roll....
You need someone to see enemy traps...Hang on while devs make traps viable...:P
I'm trying to see it as a good thing that should stay...Maybe Ill change my mine but...
-1 to Free-Rolls
When those players aren't on, who's gonna sneak? Who's gonna be that tank spammer? Who's gonna take avenger?
It doesn't even take that long to reroll, I don't know why people are bitching about "nah don't want to reroll", while they have shit builds. I personally reroll to whatever the team needs. We got no sneaker? I'll reroll to one when needed. No snipers? I'll reroll to sniper. No close range guy? I'll reroll to melee/spammer. Also this rerolling is good to test builds. One time I tested this dual weilding pulse pistol, mozam + street samurai, high AG + gum character and worked extremely well. Only thing pulse pistol is outranged by every other pistol in game.
Aww, i'm late :'(
Uninstall
Possible solutions:
Perhaps introduction of character states to save a couple of predefined roles is in order.
Say up to 3 per character, and if you want to rewrite one you have to pay.
Of course pay for each slot and only available in your HQ.
The one click re-roll you want with the limited rerolling I want.
No, I think it's fine as is. Especially when wipe happens and players will make 1 INT, 10 AG, 4 LK builds from reloaded and 6 INT, 6 STR, 6 PE, 7 AG builds from FO2. Then they realize its completely different and now are stuck with that character (how it literally was when AoP barely started).....but wait there's rerolling! Now they can fix their characters without GMs/devs wanting to kill themselves.
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@Stalker
All fair points and I totally see where this thread and indeed yourself are coming from.
I don't want re-rolls to go entirely. Like you said, peoples first character roll isn't going to be the best when they first play. But that gives something else to work towards? Something else to sink that mountain of caps and play money we have.
I just think there should be a price attached to this magical reworking of skills. 500caps, 5000caps. A whole level removed from player? I don't know something.
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Fuck that. This is what AoP dominates in compared to other FOnlines. Free, no deleting character bullshit, experience books crap, all that jibe.
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I dont see the problem when reroll is just 500caps or something that you give an npc or by talking to a machine to find a somewhat natural way of doing things.
Good point. 500 isn't a big deal and at the same time player won't be able reroll 3 times per 5 minutes cause he was in hurry and picked wrong perks or traits. Every reroll will become more important because of -500 caps or -2000 exp (as Matthew said). I was afraid of this:
My opinion on this is that the reroll should have a cost, but a reasonable cost so that a casual loner should be able to gather it in less than a week. (i am probably wrong about the number, but let's say 5000caps)
After player finally earn 5000 caps - he won't give a shit about reroll, because actual battle where his ass was kicked happened week before, when he started looking for 5000 caps.
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It's only a little bit of money.
pls think of the children :'(
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when fame related features come with constant buffs to dmagae res and plus agility , its no fun without ability to dominate alone in an mmo game ....
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I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.
To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.
Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.
When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.
Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).
About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.
Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.
Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.
For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.
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I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.
To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.
Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.
When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.
Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).
About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.
Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.
Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.
For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.
amen +1 , serious many people forgot what aop is about
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I read most of the thread while at work, sorry if I missed some arguments but I wanted to give my personal opinion. It's really an interesting debate.
To me, rerolling into "someone else" every time I'm asked to or every time it's required is a non sense. As a player in a RPG, I made a choice to create a certain character when I jumped in game. I expect my character to be good at performing the actions I wanted him to be specialized in. And I should be weaker than others in doing other types of actions. Weaker but not unable, and that's why all weapons can be used even without specialization in AoP, and that's why I can raise my other skills quite high with leveling.
Being able to reroll for free destroys the whole thing of being good at something, and be known for being good at something. It's good to know someone who is a great tank, who played countless hours at this role and who enjoys doing his job better than the opposing tanks. As a character of this world, and as a player, I want to fit a role that I chose, and be asked for help because I'm needed.
When high level characters reroll, they just stick to the most advanced equipment that their specialization encourages to use, and never use the middle stuff. It's kinda missing a part of the content imho, even though this is mostly a matter of taste and also is highly depending on the game mechanics related to equipment crafting, which are going to evolve a lot in next season.
Another matter of taste, but imho you have to "deserve" your character, and his capabilities you chose to master. You should always have spent time getting those skills, evolving, getting experience along the way. You want new ones? You should make a new character. Now, being limited to centaur bashing to get a new HL character is an absolute stupidity, and if the game cannot offer a more dense leveling experience, I agree this isn't an option (and so far, it wasn't).
About being able to counter your enemies when necessary, I of course lack actual HL pvp experience on AoP, but it seems extremely strange to me that with the variety of weapons, maps and items in general available, a team cannot find a way to beat any opposing team, whatever build they chose on their side. Not even considering that without mass reroll, teams couldn't elaborate such extreme character roasters, which would limit the need for the opposing team to do the same. Instead we would have teams with different strategies based on the available players. Of course I know about sharing chars, and doing alts. But that would probably still limit the phenomenon.
Two last points:
Being able to reroll for free makes it also harder for the noob to master his playstyle, since he has often to change to fit to the group.
And of course, the process of rerolling all the time is annoying in itself.
Now, I also agree with some of the points in favor of (free) rerolling. It's good to be able to fix a mistake you made with your build, or to change your playstyle altogether once in a while, without the necessary need for a new character. In extremely critical situations, such as the domination of another faction, it would also be nice to be able to reroll a squad to try something different against your enemy.
For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.
Beautiful. Just beautiful :'(
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All along I was wrong. It's so much clearer right now.
Gonna add cost for all additional controls, custom interface indications, item management, filters and etc. They affect economy in a terrible way.
Some kind of drug for each one, 500 caps or something around that.
Probably need to work in this way, like hide item descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some rpg skill and experience with it.
I'm so sorry I overwhelmed the game with too much hotkeys like using stimpacks on others. It takes too much attention and skill to learn it and master the basic game instead.
I think we also finally need to extend real rpg experience by punishing death, taking 1 character's level each time.
UPD: breath in, breath out. There's a point I'm surely missing. I played test session of unfinished game with the obviously different concept from that I imagined. There are some things I've never been agreed with, which is perfectly ok and unavoidable, but here are some points I can't accept and go along with. And it feels unexpectedly personal. Guess I need a break.
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All along I was wrong. It's so much clearer right now.
Gonna add cost for all additional controls, custom interface indications, item management, filters and etc. They affect economy in a terrible way.
Some kind of drug for each one, 500 caps or something around that.
Probably need to work in this way, like hide item descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some rpg skill and experience with it.
I'm so sorry I overwhelmed the game with too much hotkeys like using stimpacks on others. It takes too much attention and skill to learn it and master the basic game instead.
u already added a feature like this , i only say doorglue and c4 , 400 caps or something and if u dont have it in the current battle and a door is glued than u have to say sry guys i need to take break 6 min to buy the c4 , hope u stay alive -.- ... use stims on others etc easy doable with macros -.- plus ive never seen some other player stim me except maybe 2 or 3 very skilled players ...
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(Edited quote)
like hide item (perks) descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some (weapon) skill with it.
Why, this one sounds interesting. And remove wiki descriptions for each weapon. It's old anyway. So new player can explore literally every weapon while increasing appropriate skill. And with rerolls for caps it will take some time for learning every weapon's strong and weak sides.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/qhyq3.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/qhyq3)
In a theoritical nice world, you want to have a few money sink without being a burden to the player but we are mostly discussing free rerolls vs paid rerolls amarite? oh wait wrong thread xdd
pls dont glue courier in a room :'(
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Introduce a testing area for builds inside the firing range. Where they can mix and match all the SPECIAL STATS and perks etc.
Give people three builds to make and change between for free.
If they wish to modify any of those builds they have to pay a very high price indeed.
Problem solved?
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(https://i.imgflip.com/qhyq3.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/qhyq3)
In a theoritical nice world, you want to have a few money sink without being a burden to the player but we are mostly discussing free rerolls vs paid rerolls amarite? oh wait wrong thread xdd
pls dont glue courier in a room :'(
im forced atm to roleplay licking glue from the door eh and then again i realise its some evil bdsm dev invention , i could live with old system and something connected to st rolls like it would make sense in an rpg ... blowing doors with a charge does has is function even without the glue , the glue is actually what destroys the whole system and in its current form doesnt make sense for an rpg ...
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needs to cost some other relatively useless item, or significant experience points. one level is nothing compared to starting over. I think it is the PERFECT solution.
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Give people three builds to make and change between for free.
Genious idea, seriously. In general I see it like this:
1. New player can do 3 first rerolls for free.
2. Add commands "~s.build.1" "~s.build.2" and "~s.build.3", which will save current SPECIAL, traits and tags for player. 3 builds is maximum. Player is not obliged to save exactly first 3 reroll's results, he can save 1st one then spend money for rerolls and next time save #7 or even #31.
2.1. And add commands "~l.build.1" and so on up to "3", which will load saved builds for 500 caps, taken from player's inventory. Switching stable 500 forever;
2.2. "l.build.#" and "s.build.#" "~give me the kandy" and "~reroll SPECIAL" works only inside room/platoon base;
3. If player trying reroll 4th time, he gotta pay 500 caps. 5th time 1000, 6th 2000 caps and so on.
Question is: how possibly load build if player's perks at let say lvl 16 when he did "~s.build.1" and now he tried load it, being on level 43... :'( Or just save his special, tagged skills and traits, and he pick perks from starting point every time build loaded. Oh, really. So all clear.
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Shangalar option is so reroll-friendly that it is almost like it was free, and there is still whinning...
Come on, you just want to reroll ten times in a single evening of fighting.
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All along I was wrong. It's so much clearer right now.
Gonna add cost for all additional controls, custom interface indications, item management, filters and etc. They affect economy in a terrible way.
Some kind of drug for each one, 500 caps or something around that.
Probably need to work in this way, like hide item descriptions until you've played with it for some time and earned some rpg skill and experience with it.
I'm so sorry I overwhelmed the game with too much hotkeys like using stimpacks on others. It takes too much attention and skill to learn it and master the basic game instead.
I think we also finally need to extend real rpg experience by punishing death, taking 1 character's level each time.
UPD: breath in, breath out. There's a point I'm surely missing. I played test session of unfinished game with the obviously different concept from that I imagined. There are some things I've never been agreed with, which is perfectly ok and unavoidable, but here are some points I can't accept and go along with. And it feels unexpectedly personal. Guess I need a break.
You really must need a break, I barely bat an eyelash at anything on the forums anymore. I don't get what you're so up in arms about with the rerolls things. When I read your post, what I got from it was, "People don't agree with me, oh no. This is a fact everyone should be agreeing on, where do I go wrong?" It seems to me everyone, including the devs, has a different vision for what AoP should be.
Shangalar option is so reroll-friendly that it is almost like it was free, and there is still whinning...
Come on, you just want to reroll ten times in a single evening of fighting.
Very much agreed.
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It seems to me everyone, including the devs, has a different vision for what AoP should be.
Back in the day, aka pre-cirn, it was shangalar, lidae and me met on mumble and talked and brainstormed and wrote lenghty threads and talked about it and revised and usually found something that we all were happy with.
Nowadays it's just cirn and me on irc doing stupid shit
It's not so much about different vision as it is about different ways of reaching it. I never felt like there was any conflict within the devteams about features or content, certainly one or the other heated argument over the years but that's no problem.
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It seems to me everyone, including the devs, has a different vision for what AoP should be.
Back in the day, aka pre-cirn, it was shangalar, lidae and me met on mumble and talked and brainstormed and wrote lenghty threads and talked about it and revised and usually found something that we all were happy with.
Nowadays it's just cirn and me on irc doing stupid shit
It's not so much about different vision as it is about different ways of reaching it. I never felt like there was any conflict within the devteams about features or content, certainly one or the other heated argument over the years but that's no problem.
I more meant the dev team as a whole. Through the discussions I've been a part of and seen on the forums I've determined that AoP is something different to everyone, which is a good thing. The bad part is when everyone wants the game to be shaped and changed to their own liking, sometimes in spite of changes that are planned or implemented. I know there is some grand scheme of things for next season, and this season is just bug testing pretty much, but many people act like this iteration of AoP is what it's going to be forever. I look forward to things changing, and even though I may not always agree with a change it's not my game. I'm a player, I dont develop crap, nor did I play fonline as much as some of the people giving input. I don't think most of us here on the forums understand that what were all arguing about is probably planned to be changed for many good reasons beyond face value, and much of what we whine and moan about is already planned for next season. ATM, the forums just feels like people pushing and pulling to try and get the current build changed their way because they have some sort of odd interpretation of how they think the game should be.
tldr
Im just here for the ride
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For those reasons, I think rerolling should be limited. Something satisfying for me would be to grant every fresh character 3 free rerolls, then allow more rerolls as long as the player pays the price. 500 caps for example for the first one, then it would skyrocket based on a variable that increases with each further reroll, and decreases with time.
Fuck your rerolling cost and fuck your skyrocket rerolls!
fuck! Just keep it how it is. It's not like rerolling from sniper to sneaker gonna kill the whole balance of PvP ingame. And so what it takes times for the noobs to reroll? If they master it they can do it in less than 3 minutes
Nowadays it's just cirn and me on irc doing stupid shit
This explains why so much bullshit was implemented. Door Glue bullshit, mozambique shotty, crappy cripples, fucken faction money?! a 1 hour fun box!? WTF?!SSOOQQAAAAAAAA
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I'm not going to deny, our srsdev to stupid shit ratio is pretty good.
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Stalker, please behave or stay out of the debate. And if you re drunk, just stay out of it.
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Sorry, just expressing how much I will hate if you guys add price to reroll
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now it is guaranteed =D
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now it is guaranteed =D
ANARCHY!!!! RRIIOOOOTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!
**Throws random Javelin**
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Rerolls should be buyable for 10k caps in next season. Or like in WoW talents can be swapped between 2 builds.
The process should be automatic.
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This explains why so much bullshit was implemented. Door Glue bullshit, mozambique shotty, crappy cripples, fucken faction money?! a 1 hour fun box!? WTF?!SSOOQQAAAAAAAA
I have no problems with those. Although i mind camouflage, being unable to see inventory when waiting for revive, or the grinding involved around Power Armor...
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I have no problems with those. Although i mind camouflage, being unable to see inventory when waiting for revive, or the grinding involved around Power Armor...
You're rarely on to experience this bullshit...
Rerolls should be buyable for 10k caps in next season. Or like in WoW talents can be swapped between 2 builds.
The process should be automatic.
Are you serious? Caps are already heavily spent on gear for PvPing.
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Trusssssssttttttttt innnnnnnnnn meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~~~~~
No matter what bullshit may come, i'll try to make it worthwhile :-*.
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(http://static.deathandtaxesmag.com/uploads/2013/08/Funny-gif-man-jump-out-the-window.gif)
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Possible solutions:
Perhaps introduction of character states to save a couple of predefined roles is in order.
Say up to 3 per character, and if you want to rewrite one you have to pay.
Of course pay for each slot and only available in your HQ.
The one click re-roll you want with the limited rerolling I want.
Seems like I'm the only one, but I really like this idea, it solves the problem of certain roles going offline and ruining composition, while also allowing the feeling of fulfilling a role and having an "identity" in terms of an RPG like Shangalar spoke about.
Even if it was just a second (already selected) character preset that a player could switch to at base. That way a player has his main class that he enjoys the playstyle of the most while being able to change roles quickly and to great effect. (E.G. If someone played a sniper as his main, he may want a melee tank as his second "profile", or a sneaker may want a tank burster as his second profile, keeping options open for quick and easy team composition switch ups.
Don't get me wrong I love free rerolls, and this server has the best reroll system by far, so I do feel a bit like, if it ain't broke don't fix it but, it is pretty silly being able to morph into whatever you feel whenever you feel with no restriction.
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Shangalar option is so reroll-friendly that it is almost like it was free, and there is still whinning...
That's because it is seriously the worst suggestion/idea in the whole thread. Rising costs on each reroll punishes good players that reroll to fix holes in the team composition and benefits retards that play the same build every battle.
Just go with cirno's 3 slots and pay to change one of them
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I side with ramon here. Old system sucked ass. New system was never a new system but a dirty fix for the old one. Want unlimited rerolls go play nethack.
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Shangalar option is so reroll-friendly that it is almost like it was free, and there is still whinning...
That's because it is seriously the worst suggestion/idea in the whole thread. Rising costs on each reroll punishes good players that reroll to fix holes in the team composition and benefits retards that play the same build every battle.
Just go with cirno's 3 slots and pay to change one of them
You purposly forget that this cost also decrease over time.
It punish abuse while allowing fair use of reroll without much cost.
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the cost should be fixed though, cause else you always feel guilty for reroling or have second thoughts about it and it would just create a lot of negativity without any real gain.
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cost = gold nugget + one experience level
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I really think 3 builds + a fee for alterations is perfectly reasonable.
Cuz its expensive to alter clones.
"You see...Yourself, suspended in some kind of gel filled tube..."
Interact with these to change to one of your pre-set rolls! Sorta making magical reforms lore friendly!
Shouldn't be too hard...right? :D
Just a thought.
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The reason why I'm against having these pre-made slots is what if you want to make a modification to them? Like taking a different trait or perk, etc. I'd really hate it if I have to spend caps just to make a small modification. Caps are better off spent on equipment, not making rerolls.
Besides, why can't it just be as it is now? I see nothing wrong with it. And for sure as hell see no possibility of it being "abused"
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The reason why I'm against having these pre-made slots is what if you want to make a modification to them?
Or if changes are made to the game and you want to switch them up slightly etc, yeah that could be annoying, but the rerolls that exist would still function alongside the "slots" system, so they could still be utilised for alterations and customisation etc.
Perhaps limiting free rerolls by time (e.g. one per week) and by location (i.e. only in room/base) would give leeway for "fixing mistakes" and testing builds and the like, then by forcing excessive rerolls to pay somehow (money, rep, XP) would deter using rerolls as a combat tactic.
EDIT; those "Roll chamber" pics look great Stem +1, very fallouty :) I guess they would go in peoples rooms?
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The reason why I'm against having these pre-made slots is what if you want to make a modification to them? Like taking a different trait or perk, etc. I'd really hate it if I have to spend caps just to make a small modification. Caps are better off spent on equipment, not making rerolls.
Besides, why can't it just be as it is now? I see nothing wrong with it. And for sure as hell see no possibility of it being "abused"
Since you're going to be snek in Brahminboys until the end of times because nobody wants to play with you, what use could you have for unlimited rerolls?
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I don't understand why some of you seem to want to give the game an even more pronounced feeling of a Hinkley 2.0. Why not simply give away all the optimized builds and let players choose between any of them? It makes no sense at all to me. It simply looks as a cheat code, or like you don't really wanna play anything else than HL PvP. I don't understand the purpose of having three characters in one either. Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
It also seems to go against our initial vision of characters leveling up on the battlefield alongside their mates and forces them to hide until max level even more. And perhaps this vision is not working, or is impossible to imagine. But I don't think it really is in the future.
The reason why I'm against having these pre-made slots is what if you want to make a modification to them? Like taking a different trait or perk, etc.
Carefully design your character in the first place.
I'd really hate it if I have to spend caps just to make a small modification. Caps are better off spent on equipment, not making rerolls.
So you can gather any type of stuff and use it yourself without having any relation/trade with any other player. Cool, no interactions. And besides, if you cannot play any char, you don't need as much caps to maintain any profile viable.
Besides, why can't it just be as it is now? I see nothing wrong with it. And for sure as hell see no possibility of it being "abused"
We typed reasons, perhaps you need to read them again. And of course, it can't be abused. It's a total abuse already in itself if you think about it!
Rising costs on each reroll punishes good players that reroll to fix holes in the team composition.
Being a good player would actually imo be to adapt with your profile to the battle that's coming to you thanks to your scouts/faction mates info, and based on what you know from the enemy present on the battlefield and the profiles they use.
and benefits retards that play the same build every battle.
Since when playing the same profile on different battles is being a retard? Since when do you have to bring the exact same equipment with you and play the exact same way?
Sorry STALKER but it seems your vision of the game and the experience has evolved a way that is looks really far fetched to me. Or perhaps you just spent so much time playing that you became lazy towards any form of you what you consider being effort? ;)
I just know I would be playing this game in the first place to create and evolve one character that I chose and live adventures with that character. Not having that breaks the single reason why I would come as a new player in the first place. And that's the same for any other RPG along the way. I'm not coming to play Battlefield here. I'm coming to play Fallout.
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I'm not coming to play Battlefield here. I'm coming to play Fallout.
Just as fact, AoP most closer to Battlefield and Counter Strike than any other server which I know. And it isn't bad. I do like play here because it looks like counter strike with scavenging on top of it. That's why all ways to simplify leveling/changing perks and skills perceived for me positively. I really wondering how server became way it is if it's developer think so different way about how it gotta be.
Dude, all those things you consider positively are the result of our design. So stop considering us to be against you...
I didn't get it at all. Against me? What?
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Dude, all those things you consider positively are the result of our design. So stop considering us to be against you...
We just have to put barriers at some points, that's developing the game and have a vision and plans for it.
Besides, another argument:
I've read a lot of whine about swarms on the forums. Seems like most PvP sessions end up with one team yelling that the other swarms. Do you realize that with full rerolls, you amplify the phenomenon? If you always fight against optimized characters who planned their build based on their number before coming to fight, you start with a stronger disadvantage for every character the other team has more than you. Creating small groups of players with profiles that play well altogether once and for all would be more efficient than a swarm of chars that are not adapted to each other, if they weren't able to prepare with rerolls beforehand.
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I'm not coming to play Battlefield here. I'm coming to play Fallout.
Just as fact, AoP most closer to Battlefield and Counter Strike than any other server which I know. And it isn't bad. I do like play here because it looks like counter strike with scavenging on top of it. That's why all ways to simplify leveling/changing perks and skills perceived for me positively. I really wondering how server became way it is if it's developer think so different way about how it gotta be.
happens when noone is around that contributes some good ideas , but not only ideas , also quests and writing , i mean im all in for shangalaars ideas ... but on the other hand it needs alot of work , and for now i dont see anyone with good writing skill or questideas , in the end it also needs coding sometimes even new art so u see 3 different specilaists getting together is always hard to organise, well atleast noone around willing to do it i guess ... but i would also love to see more pve content with some more specific bigger questlines in all different factions to get a better feeling in the core when theres no big time pvp also for more immershun and for the great basic lore it already has ...
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Indeed Kurwier but there are different approaches. We can imagine activities that don't rely on a single epic predefined scenario but on PvE/PvP contents, more adapted to MMOs. For sure I'd like more quests and I once had plans for them, but that's a whole different topic anyway.
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Besides, why can't it just be as it is now? I see nothing wrong with it. And for sure as hell see no possibility of it being "abused"
It is already abused every time a player change build for several battle of the same day, to counter the build/weapon used by enemies. Reroll isn't there to make characters able to do everything, provided that they have 3 minutes to tape the new reroll build.
It is a tool to adapt your character after a changelog that render some of you perks/traits/skills/etc useless, or to correct some mistakes of your build, to a certain extend (i think the initial limit was 3 reroll at the beginning of the server), as the characters planners aren't perfect yet and all the combat features fully known by newcomers. It can also have an extra use for testing purpose, if the dev want all of use to suddenly use grenades or spears, because those specific items are the ones dev want to balance at the moment.
But rerolls aren't a PVP feature that are supposed to give an edge to those who reroll the most in a single day. You aren't testing, you aren't fixing a mistake, when you keep changing your characters every days/hours/battles/assault for several weeks/months in a row. You are supposed to play a role in the game. Unlimited reroll and camouflage break that thing by making everyone replacable and homogeneous, while the team should adapt to the build of its members, not change them to an "always the same" combination.
Ideally there wouldn't be abusers, just testers. But it is specifically because the abuse are already happening that there is talk about cost. If everyone was already fair, there wouldn't be any need for a rule.
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Indeed Kurwier but there are different approaches. We can imagine activities that don't rely on a single epic predefined scenario but on PvE/PvP contents, more adapted to MMOs. For sure I'd like more quests and I once had plans for them, but that's a whole different topic anyway.
well i got some simple ideas too but in the end i always hear aop is a pvp server and so on :D
the idea im talking about is or was to give each faction some bigger questline where u can obtain the faction cmbt armor and maybe mk2 ...
these 2 armors have same stats as regular combat armor mk2 and 3 , so my idea was to make the faction ones rarer , roleplay type of armor , something which looks cool ... and that it would be neat if u could gain it through a quest or some questline where u have to earn it in some roleplay way with retrivieng x y item from specific place or any other simple objective , like killing this member from the family if u are a member of the jjjla ( some specific npc in special location ...) that it fit into some lore ... ofcourse this rquires some maps , scripting and writing .
i got plenty ideas , i could also make some maps for such purposes and some simple concept idea , only thing which i suck at is scripting the scripting stuff u need for the npcs , locations etc. and ofcourse writing since english isnt my mothertongue
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To conclude this digression Kurwier, I would say this:
Once second season starts, the game should look much closer to its final form. And that will be the moment to conceive and introduce such content. You can already try to design something concrete on your side or with anyone wishing to contribute.
I think you should not be simply considering AoP as PvP or PvE, see it as a whole. We want players online, that's what we all want at the end. Have a populated world. And how do you please more players? By proposing different types of content that they like. The more you have, the more they'll be susceptible to give it a try, and stay.
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To conclude this digression Kurwier, I would say this:
Once second season starts, the game should look much closer to its final form. And that will be the moment to conceive and introduce such content. You can already try to design something concrete on your side or with anyone wishing to contribute.
I think you should not be simply considering AoP as PvP or PvE, see it as a whole. We want players online, that's what we all want at the end. Have a populated world. And how do you please more players? By proposing different types of content that they like. The more you have, the more they'll be susceptible to give it a try, and stay.
well i try to see it as a whole thing , and atm the pvp side is clearly stronger than the pve one ... im glad for some stationary npcs from last changelogs , but imo this need to be polsihed more but its the right way ... about these quests its really hard to say what the best way would be , because we know that assignments didnt bring people into the core and the core from how i understand it or see it is one of the main features in aop ... but then again on the other hand u got this pve / pvp mixture which is really hard to balance , i mean i like if both things can be possible but i do also know that some things could be abused by camping etc. if not really good thought out and then it wouldnt be fun for pve players , so its really hard to bring pve / pvp together in some way that it would be somehow balanced ... i mean those quest i was speaking about cud be taking place on some small worldmap enco ofcourse it would need to be a onetime quest , other things (repeatable jobs / quests) i could also imagine directly in the core , like scavenging for some stuff and that u have been told that u have a high chance at x y map to find item x y , item could be put on rareloottable and things are fine , u know from beginning that its dangerous to go there because u could possible encounter other players and on the other hand nobody could camp a specific spot ( like some stairs etc. ) ...
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I really like Stem idea of cloning cuves.
It really add to immertion in the game and make rerolling not just a bugfix like kind of interaction.
So I unsign the petition and agree with shangalar alternative, make us pay! 500 caps is nothing.
Also yes (to stay out of topic) core quests for objects retrieval and enemy/npcs killing is nice.
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Kurwier: That's why I say wait until season 2 starts. Now end of off topic please ;)
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You can just move the discussion to another thread if you want to continue huehue.
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Shangalar it seems to me like you wanna put the final nail into the aop coffin. Serious PVP players is the only crowd this server has and the things discussed here serve no other purpose than make the game less enjoyable for them.
Please no "adapting" with a single build arguments from someone that doesn't even play the game. There is no adapting. If you get countered by the enemy team and have no way of changing that with a reroll you just log off.
Reroll costs just dont add anything good or interesting to the game. All they do is further increase the time you have to waste until you see some player interaction.
And the Ratio of action to time spent playing is already horrible. If you get 5 minutes of actual fighting for being online a whole hour you can actually consider yourself lucky right now.
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If you get countered by the enemy team and have no way of changing that with a reroll you just log off.
This sounds like rerolling is the only solution there is to win a fight. I don't know how we have to take that.
And the Ratio of action to time spent playing is already horrible. If you get 5 minutes of actual fighting for being online a whole hour you can actually consider yourself lucky right now.
Difficult to consider it otherwise with 20 players connected on higher peaks, which is an entirely other thing to me.
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Shangalar it seems to me like you wanna put the final nail into the aop coffin.
Please no "adapting" with a single build arguments from someone that doesn't even play the game. There is no adapting. If you get countered by the enemy team and have no way of changing that with a reroll you just log off.
Reroll costs just dont add anything good or interesting to the game. All they do is further increase the time you have to waste until you see some player interaction.
And the Ratio of action to time spent playing is already horrible. If you get 5 minutes of actual fighting for being online a whole hour you can actually consider yourself lucky right now.
thats just due to low server population , also try to figure out why it is so low ... if free rerolls are that awesome why people stopped playing ? or time u need to spent to get equipment , oh right u dont need any so theres no need to be in the core ... good logic u got here. right now people still running from each other instead of fighting because they fear the loose of something they got enough to pvp for whole years, or something which is almost free to them ... or they just take winning , loosing , pixelz too serious ... well i dunno , i cant explain that phenomenom but i see certain reasons why core is empty and why not so many people are left on server , because beside that enemy taking the game in actual state too serious and u get the actiontime u describe , which is boring to anyone that joins in current state , theres nuthing else to do , thats the thing.
people just type !s every 1 min in irc instead of actually playing the game.
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@Shangalar
To not make you think that I consider you against me, as we have never really spoken, have to introduce myself as someone who was helping with the game development for a while. Up to everyone to decide how much was worth it, I guess better ask my evaluation at Cirn or John.
But unlike all other devs, I'm the only one who has been here as a real player, coming through the all stages of the game as a player.
Although my concept of the game I want to play is different from yours, for some reason I play this game... and you probably don't? And yeah, I also work full-time and have regular trainings. Although no, no family yet.
Now I'm going to be honest and direct to the limit, many people consider it aggressive, but what I really do is just give the raw facts and my interpretation.
> Carefully design your character in the first place.
Have never been possible in the history of AoP yet. The game has never had any actual / informative / full information source about the game mechanics. In the same time mechanics were complicated enough so I don't see how anyone could get into it without trying it. Your idea of character building in AoP seems to be very far from reality: balanced, stable in time, playable in any case. I have an year of active playing experience, including leading small and big groups, creating own character planner reimplementing the math, character building for many of my teammates, communication with new and old players. As soon as player-base of your team is changed, to be competitive you have to adjust the whole set of the teammates builds. Until now weapon and mechanics balancing were breaking ability to play for some builds completely. And I think it until the development will be ended, it will stay the same.
Now it takes hours and hours of time to understand and carefully design your first 3-5 builds, which still will be pretty bad. I've probably spent 20-30+ hours of planning builds instead of creating them/testing/improving i.e. playing the game. Instead, if you actually play the game and able to adjust your build, you will spend energy into exactly mastering the game instead of mastering the game with your limited lame build.
I've seen many people stopped playing after their builds came out uncompetitive, and they understood it only 2-3 weeks of playing of "deserving" their characters through lame leveling.
You insist on the game mechanics, which is most often used in games as a point of top frustration of the players, when they want to have different/better gameplay, but pushed into paying real money to get it or tons of gameplay time they don't want to spend (e.g. high level tanks in World of Tanks).
Unless you're going to charge money from players, I don't see why is so significant to you to make them go through this.
I don't see how anyone could make you reroll, if you don't want to. But why the hell call this wrong mechanics in take it from other players if they like it.
As far as I see now, new season mechanics will be pretty much gamble, not even close to be balanced through the whole time of the tier progression.
Small scale fights are highly different from big scale fights, and often big scale builds do not perform in small scale and vise versa. Now without rerolls you're even pushing the player to play only in the some type of very limited situations, which they will be able to compete and win, instead of letting players play in any moment of time in any of the type of possible situation.
You were saying something about playing against swarms... I guess it's pretty good time to point out the lack of your actual playing experience again, and probably especially in organized team able to compete and fight back the enemy outnumbered. If you don't have correct builds+situation for it, there's no way to fight swarm. And for small team is more important than for swarm.
> I don't understand the purpose of having three characters in one either. Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
> We want players online, that's what we all want at the end. Have a populated world. And how do you please more players? By proposing different types of content that they like.
Well, you obviously don't want more players. I just explained how do you limit their ability to have different type of gameplay.
> So you can gather any type of stuff and use it yourself without having any relation/trade with any other player. Cool, no interactions. And besides, if you cannot play any char, you don't need as much caps to maintain any profile viable.
So instead let players farm day and night! It will increase interaction. The only interaction in the game will appear only between people who wants to interact and you can't really interfere with it and teams. Now we've been open as a team through the most of the season and got plenty of interaction. But if I just want to buy something for caps, I just call the price and make the deal.. Fo2 apes will tell you who does it go, there's nothing increasing interaction in it.
> Being a good player would actually imo be to adapt with your profile to the battle that's coming to you thanks to your scouts/faction mates info, and based on what you know from the enemy present on the battlefield and the profiles they use.
If you still haven't get it... there's no scout in your team anymore, he said fuck this game, I'm tired of playing sneaker which does from 1 minigun shot.
Now every respecting himself professional playing this game competitive will have to have different characters OR builds to be effective. You either have to significantly increase leveling time for prevent multi-charactering (which is against your principles, no?), either let it go and let everyone to adjust easily.
It seems to me that you just pushing other players into your playstyle. Why?
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@Cirno
"I actually sat and thought about it. I just had a personal prejudice about players who will meta via re-rolling instead of working to find a solution. I think I just wanted players to "gitgud" but re-rolls doesn't necessarily stop or encourage it. At the end of the day its the player not the mechanic. "
How about... you find a solution and balance meta instead of limiting players?
There's no meta in 7+ people from each side fights, because location, tactics and flexibility of taken builds and gear do not let you to win easily. But it's only because you let players to reroll and counter DSR with smoke one fight, and then take DSR yourself, because enemy will bring avengers.
As I said above, just for example Cryier has no life and will always have 10 characters, so he wants that I'd not have more than 1 character - because he will always be able to counter my character. Multi-charactering and no-rerolls will mostly benefit no-life players , and this was exactly the reason why I've never really player TLA mk2 or stopped playing Fo2.
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I don't understand why some of you seem to want to give the game an even more pronounced feeling of a Hinkley 2.0. Why not simply give away all the optimized builds and let players choose between any of them? It makes no sense at all to me. It simply looks as a cheat code, or like you don't really wanna play anything else than HL PvP. I don't understand the purpose of having three characters in one either. Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
It also seems to go against our initial vision of characters leveling up on the battlefield alongside their mates and forces them to hide until max level even more.
Carefully design your character in the first place.
The systems (perks special etc) sometimes work very differently than they do in other servers, there is a difference between knowing what type of character you want to build, and actually doing it "right" or well (or effectively enough to be competitive with others trying the same thing). If rerolls were never available I would have made several new alt accounts with slight changes just because it was either something I wanted to try or something I felt was a mistake when I made the character (and I read the shit out of the wiki/asked questions while planning etc).
Having multiple accounts/characters and thus multiple roles is possible without rerolls, having rerolls just cuts out the middleman of having to level up several different accounts in order to be able to "fulfill more than one role" to full effect.
I know you are saying that everyone can do almost everything to some degree (a purposely built sniper can pick up a minigun and still be effective), but you will still never be as effective in a specific role unless you are built for it, and in the team dynamic, it doesn't make sense to give a purpose built sniper a minigun and putting him at the front of the pack just because you don't have a front line minigunner (that's a pretty general example too, you can never really expect a tanky, frontline big gunner to start sneaking around and scouting).
The reason the slots or profiles idea appeals to me in particular is that I do not enjoy having "alts" at all, and prefer to just focus on one account rather than having to maintain multiple, but being able to fulfill a different role(s) than my particular favorite (to full effect), without having to change accounts to a different character entirely, or reroll my character entirely would be extremely useful.
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I don't understand why some of you seem to want to give the game an even more pronounced feeling of a Hinkley 2.0. Why not simply give away all the optimized builds and let players choose between any of them? It makes no sense at all to me. It simply looks as a cheat code, or like you don't really wanna play anything else than HL PvP. I don't understand the purpose of having three characters in one either. Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
It also seems to go against our initial vision of characters leveling up on the battlefield alongside their mates and forces them to hide until max level even more.
Carefully design your character in the first place.
The systems (perks special etc) sometimes work very differently than they do in other servers, there is a difference between knowing what type of character you want to build, and actually doing it "right" or well (or effectively enough to be competitive with others trying the same thing). If rerolls were never available I would have made several new alt accounts with slight changes just because it was either something I wanted to try or something I felt was a mistake when I made the character (and I read the shit out of the wiki/asked questions while planning etc).
Having multiple accounts/characters and thus multiple roles is possible without rerolls, having rerolls just cuts out the middleman of having to level up several different accounts in order to be able to "fulfill more than one role" to full effect.
I know you are saying that everyone can do almost everything to some degree (a purposely built sniper can pick up a minigun and still be effective), but you will still never be as effective in a specific role unless you are built for it, and in the team dynamic, it doesn't make sense to give a purpose built sniper a minigun and putting him at the front of the pack just because you don't have a front line minigunner (that's a pretty general example too, you can never really expect a tanky, frontline big gunner to start sneaking around and scouting).
The reason the slots or profiles idea appeals to me in particular is that I do not enjoy having "alts" at all, and prefer to just focus on one account rather than having to maintain multiple, but being able to fulfill a different role(s) than my particular favorite (to full effect), without having to change accounts to a different character entirely, or reroll my character entirely would be extremely useful.
then stay with one account , its possible in aop to make one build for almost all purposes ... ofcourse u will be more effective with some dedicated build still the mechanincs there for good versatile gameplay , just compare it with other fonlines and u clearly see that. second thing im all in for that alt thing , because if u just want dedicated builds then go level them! or pay for the reroll and get poor after 1k rerolls because u had to reroll after every battle because u play without a team and 1 vs swarm ( really what excuses there to justify current reroll system?). the point is that this rerolls kill all that supposed role stuff plus it kills the need of leveling (going into core etc type of stuff) at some point and then we get what we got now , people sitting in hq and qq about no pvp , no interaction etc. ...
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It simply looks as a cheat code, or like you don't really wanna play anything else than HL PvP.
This is pretty much the current AOP playerbase.
Guys, just think of paid reroll like an act of goodwill. Every time you are paying for reroll you are pushing the economy into the right direction.
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Niamak, I deleted channel in the mumble named after you.
Another possible broken interaction free rerolls could have saved!
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then stay with one account , its possible in aop to make one build for almost all purposes ... ofcourse u will be more effective with some dedicated build still the mechanincs there for good versatile gameplay , just compare it with other fonlines and u clearly see that. second thing im all in for that alt thing , because if u just want dedicated builds then go level them! or pay for the reroll and get poor after 1k rerolls because u had to reroll after every battle because u play without a team and 1 vs swarm ( really what excuses there to justify current reroll system?). the point is that this rerolls kill all that supposed role stuff plus it kills the need of leveling (going into core etc type of stuff) at some point and then we get what we got now , people sitting in hq and qq about no pvp , no interaction etc. ...
I know, and I likely will stay with one account, but if I can get specific, I personally play a sneaker, but to me it seems selfish to only ever be able to fully effective as a sneaker as a team player in a team oriented game, of course I can pick up a PKS and put on SPA, but it would be silly to do that if there is someone that combo would be more effective on (that may not even be online at that moment etc). If I had a machine at base that allowed me to switch to even just a second pre-determined role (likely a big gun specialist or tank of some description), I personally, as a casual, one account player, would have a vastly larger range of effectiveness.
I don't want rerolls to be something done after every battle etc, the main reason I use them is to test specific variations to my specific build (let alone testing other builds) and fixing mistakes, for that reason alone I would want rerolls to still be available (I'm fine with a pricetag).
As a sidenote;
To me the definition of swarm = 5 guys try to take control of an area and 11 guys show up to deal with them.
Once you see more than double than your full numbers heading toward you, tactics tend to go out of the window in terms of usefulness.
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It most have been said a billion times at least, but i think we aren't even halfway to make that information to reach Paragon's brain, but it was never said that all reroll would have a huge cost or that reroll would disapear. There is the 3builds option, the option of cost increasing overtime, the option of having a few initial free roll etc...
Nobody here is agains't the fair use of reroll to correct a build or adapt after a changelog. The big problem is that some amount of people cannot just moderate themselves and already are abusing the system by rerolling multiple times the same day or playing entirelly different type of characters, which have a direct impact on the battlefield. The cost is a limit that prevent those kind of abuse. That doesn't mean that the reroll itself will disapear. Fair use should still exist, but don't expect us to believe that those who already hugely abuse the system will gently stop to abuse it because there is no rules to control it. They wouldn't be opposed to those rules in the first place if they intended to respect them.
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Since you're going to be snek in Brahminboys until the end of times because nobody wants to play with you, what use could you have for unlimited rerolls?
What does this have to do with anything about the discussion?
I don't understand why some of you seem to want to give the game an even more pronounced feeling of a Hinkley 2.0.
How the fuck will these be Hinkley 2.0??!? Last I checked Hinkley spawned us gear. Hinkley battles don't last 3 minutes. Hinkley battles there is no team outnumbering the other. Hinkley doesn't allow you to reroll so ???
Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
So you basically want to bring experience books to here on AoP? Been playing much FO2 lately? Fuck that bullshit.
It also seems to go against our initial vision of characters leveling up on the battlefield alongside their mates and forces them to hide until max level even more. And perhaps this vision is not working, or is impossible to imagine. But I don't think it really is in the future.
Because level 1 alts can go toe-to-toe with level 24 alts ::). It's clearly not working and forces players to do some PvE so they can gain weapon skill to shoot shit.
The reason why I'm against having these pre-made slots is what if you want to make a modification to them? Like taking a different trait or perk, etc.
Carefully design your character in the first place.
Oh? What if new perks come out like they did here? Street Samurai, Simian warfare, etc. I'm forced to pay my caps just to get one of those perks which I'd much rather spend on equipment.
I'd really hate it if I have to spend caps just to make a small modification. Caps are better off spent on equipment, not making rerolls.
So you can gather any type of stuff and use it yourself without having any relation/trade with any other player. Cool, no interactions. And besides, if you cannot play any char, you don't need as much caps to maintain any profile viable.
This one I don't really understand ???
Besides, why can't it just be as it is now? I see nothing wrong with it. And for sure as hell see no possibility of it being "abused"
We typed reasons, perhaps you need to read them again. And of course, it can't be abused. It's a total abuse already in itself if you think about it!
Oh. Mu. Glob. Because a team re-rerolling to snipers is the biggest abuse in FOnline history! I can't even! Bigger abuse than Rusty's GM abuse back in 2238!
Since when playing the same profile on different battles is being a retard? Since when do you have to bring the exact same equipment with you and play the exact same way?
Oh ya you know, I'll just stay on my long range rocket launcher build for a small 2 vs 2. I will definetly win that battle. Oh, the enemy teams are fighting? I better stay on my laser rifle to kill some for sure!
Sorry STALKER but it seems your vision of the game and the experience has evolved a way that is looks really far fetched to me. Or perhaps you just spent so much time playing that you became lazy towards any form of you what you consider being effort? ;)
An effort for what exactly? You're basically saying "Fuck you guys and your petition, we're changing rerolls so that you have to pay caps"
EVEN THOUGH THESE REMAING PLAYERS, WHICH IS LIKE HALF THE SERVER, THE MOST EXPERIENCED PLAYERS ON AOP ATM, WANT THEM TO BE FREE BUT YET, YOU STILL WANT TO CHANGE THE WAY REROLLS WORK.
"Open Petition To Keep Rerolls Free" sign up sheet:
1. paragon
2. clochard
3. RazorRamon
4. Combatant
5. twat
6. Niamak
7. naossano
8. mafiapl (hellmai)
9. Count Matthew
10. cirn0
11. MARXMAN
13. Stem Sunders
14. S.T.A.L.K.E.R
So basically Shanagalar, you want to encourage alting. Rerolls are good already because we KEEP the experience, we KEEP those PvE skills without them changing, we KEEP the same ZC score, kills, bounty, etc. and you just want to pull that away from us . Hell, I think I'm gonna have to make 8 different alts next session just for whatever the team needs if rerolls were to change.
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That petition sign up sheet is pure garbage. At least half of the names listed are people that are agains't free unlimited reroll.
Also, once again, it isn't about removing rerolls entirely...
PS: As a side note, the server is supposed to have bigger population and more varied activities. If your team have 50 guys, you don't need any "new" sniper. And if your team can't ZC on sunday, there should be other stuff to do. Current situation doesn't reflect the wanted situation for the server.
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Its just a debate, and nobody said rerolling would be removed. Now if you cannot behave or properly read each others argument, stalker and others. I ll just leave it.
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> That petition sign up sheet is pure garbage. Two third of the names listed are people that are against free unlimited reroll.
Wow, wow, easy there. First and second messages in the thread stated that everyone writing anything in this thread is signing up the petition, it's never meant to be "discussion of the petition" thread. If you consider that % of valid information in the petition sheet is higher than % of the valid information at the wiki or this forum, than you're basically calling our beloved forum pure garbage as well. But this is offensive, please delete your message
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If rerolls were to be removed...
ANARCHY!!!!!
RIIOOTTT!!!
xD
(http://i.imgur.com/bNtzqEg.jpg)
It's joke, calm down. Relax. Uuuussaaaaaa. Simmer down.
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> That petition sign up sheet is pure garbage. Two third of the names listed are people that are against free unlimited reroll.
Wow, wow, easy there. First and second messages in the thread stated that everyone writing anything in this thread is signing up the petition, it's never meant to be "discussion of the petition" thread. If you consider that % of valid information in the petition sheet is higher than % of the valid information at the wiki or this forum, than you're basically calling our beloved forum pure garbage as well. But this is offensive, please delete your message
I know you are trying very hard but i don't believe that you are stupid enough to not being able to know the difference between someone who agree with you and someone who doesn't. You just have to read their post. Considering you are able to post, you should have no problem reading those post and check who is actually agreeing with you and signing the petition.
Any attempt to paint you as even more stupid that you already are will only happen to be detrimental to the cause you are trying to defend. If you really believe that your cause is worth defending, you should put a minimum of effort in making yourself credible. (as long as you paint yourself as the figurehead of this cause) (Of course, it might be an intended move to make us believe that you are agains't rerolls limits while in fact you are trying to discredit unlimited reroll, but i have no interest in blowing your cover if it is the case)
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I'm just sticking to the set rules and approaches to organise content, which seems so hard for you to understand. I don't believe people are stupid enough to not to be able to do it. Still you post comments in "PvP Movies and Screens" instead of "PvP Discussion" and comments in here instead of whatever different thread and expect me to read your posts.
RTFM.
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Well, once again, what would be the purpose of said petition sheet, if it is glaring and obvious to everyone that many names are people disagreeing ? Something that you don't even try to contest/fix/aknowledge/etc... If your goal is just to write as many names as possible, including known people that publicy told they were agains't said petition intend, then you can even add people from outside AOP or even fictionnal names. If your goal is to actually defend the intend of the petition, you should consider giving it a bare minimum amount of credibility, by only putting names of people agreeing with you. (if said people do exist). So the people that would have the slightest chance to be influenced by a community petition wouldn't just joke on it. Even if i don't share their POV, the people that actually want unlimited free reroll would probably enjoy more credibility on their side. That can be very helpfull to defend a cause.
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Btw I actually approve free rerolls. Paragon signed me up because he knows me better.
pls dont hurt my family
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Agreed with nao. Acting childish, caricaturing others arguments, caps locking, insulting, exaggerating, all that shit you do all the time just proves that one shouldn't even spend time reading your posts seriously. That being said:
@STALKER:
Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
So you basically want to bring experience books to here on AoP? Been playing much FO2 lately? Fuck that bullshit.
You didn't get it. I don't want that. I'm opposed to this just as I'm opposed to the magical omniscient knowledge rerolls represent.
Because level 1 alts can go toe-to-toe with level 24 alts ::). It's clearly not working and forces players to do some PvE so they can gain weapon skill to shoot shit.
Caricature. Never said lvl 1. I saw lvl 15 doing just fine, so I know it's possible. Which other server allows that?
Oh? What if new perks come out like they did here? Street Samurai, Simian warfare, etc. I'm forced to pay my caps just to get one of those perks which I'd much rather spend on equipment.
We can grant free rerolls for these occasions.
This one I don't really understand
Doesn't really surprise me tbh. And the rest of your post is just trolling crap.
Now, to a post that is far more interesting:
@Paragon:
> Carefully design your character in the first place.
Have never been possible in the history of AoP yet. [...][explanation about AoP char complexity]
Thanks for the explanation, it's been a long time since I feel mechanics are getting too complicated and that the best design has to be simple. I feel that I failed to warn the other devs about it and let them go too far as they explored limits of the engine and design. I'm afraid there isn't much that can be done about that aspect at this point, unfortunately.
You insist on the game mechanics, which is most often used in games as a point of top frustration of the players, when they want to have different/better gameplay, but pushed into paying real money to get it or tons of gameplay time they don't want to spend (e.g. high level tanks in World of Tanks).
Unless you're going to charge money from players, I don't see why is so significant to you to make them go through this.
Well, I just think not unlocking every content with a single char is another way for players to be willing to try different things and to stick longer to the game, that's something that kept us for years on 2238. I feel having everything at hand is somehow too 'generous', meaning that it strongly diminishes the incentive to make different chars. Though ofc, I'm not AT ALL for reintroducing alt fest and everything related to that. But still, it bothers me that way.
I don't see how anyone could make you reroll, if you don't want to. But why the hell call this wrong mechanics in take it from other players if they like it.
Getting a strong advantage on the next battlefield is already a big argument in favor of forcing everyone to reroll all the time. And then you become the lazy selfish guy if you don't. Hell no... I prefer the vision of the hero sacrificing himself to reroll when that's absolutely necessary...!
As far as I see now, new season mechanics will be pretty much gamble, not even close to be balanced through the whole time of the tier progression.
That's very possible and understandable. And most probably unacceptable indeed.
Small scale fights are highly different from big scale fights, and often big scale builds do not perform in small scale and vise versa. [Now without rerolls you're even pushing the player to play only in the some type of very limited situations, which they will be able to compete and win, instead of letting players play in any moment of time in any of the type of possible situation.]
I feel that such argument goes both ways and that there isn't any perfect solution. Cause I could just reply that with rerolling, it just gets down to player numbers...
You were saying something about playing against swarms... I guess it's pretty good time to point out the lack of your actual playing experience again, and probably especially in organized team able to compete and fight back the enemy outnumbered. If you don't have correct builds+situation for it, there's no way to fight swarm. And for small team is more important than for swarm.
Who gets the best advantage in having free rerolls here? The swarm or the small group? You say the small group and I'd say the swarm, but I got your point and I think you're right here. The swarm doesn't really care with the advantage it already has, while the small group if profiles are not adapted to each other is just paralyzed without being able to attempt to compete.
> I don't understand the purpose of having three characters in one either. Why not simply let you transfer experience through your characters? It doesn't make more sense.
> We want players online, that's what we all want at the end. Have a populated world. And how do you please more players? By proposing different types of content that they like.
Well, you obviously don't want more players. I just explained how do you limit their ability to have different type of gameplay.
I really don't think the new player will care about rerolling when he jumps in at all. I don't agree that limiting free reroll would really limit their gameplay. It would just require the player to do some effort in order to access the gameplay he wants. Again, I'm not aiming at that usual bullshit we knew for a long time, aka "I picked one wrong perk? let's start over again!"
> So you can gather any type of stuff and use it yourself without having any relation/trade with any other player. Cool, no interactions. And besides, if you cannot play any char, you don't need as much caps to maintain any profile viable.
So instead let players farm day and night! It will increase interaction. The only interaction in the game will appear only between people who wants to interact and you can't really interfere with it and teams. Now we've been open as a team through the most of the season and got plenty of interaction. But if I just want to buy something for caps, I just call the price and make the deal.. Fo2 apes will tell you who does it go, there's nothing increasing interaction in it.
Don't caricature, please. We all know how AoP feels concerning grinding, and even during this session where the amount of activities was extremely limited (and that was bad I agree), I don't think players suffered that much from grinding, at least compared to other servers. I would even say that most players grinded because they felt they had to do it, while we were often stating that they should go to PvP from day 1.
Now every respecting himself professional playing this game competitive will have to have different characters OR builds to be effective. You either have to significantly increase leveling time for prevent multi-charactering (which is against your principles, no?), either let it go and let everyone to adjust easily.
You're pointing out perhaps the biggest design mistake we did. Ignoring the stubbornness and desire for optimization that characterizes PvP players.
It seems to me that you just pushing other players into your playstyle. Why?
Again, I'm just expressing my opinion. Despite all the reasons you gave in favor of allowing free rerolls, I still know for sure that I wouldn't play a game that allows it to that extent. For me, it has to have a limit somewhere. We just have to find it, and those 3 slot profiles could well do the job.
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Character building is just another part of combination of situation, tactics, team loadout and weapons mechanics itself. Yes it's pretty complicated, and devs are concerned about it. But in the same it gives the AoP deepness, variability and charm which no other Fo have. It's a big step from arcade-alike to simulator-alike, which I like a lot, but that's surely taste connected.
Just as an example, players in Fo2 play the char only until it gets level 99, than they create new one. Because why wasting ability to get huge advantage through multi-charactering. AoP doesn't have upper level limit, so players don't need to switch to new char after some level, but without free rerolls you still need that another character to use different equipment loadout.
In whole I don't see disagreement in your answer with my words. For you it seems is the question of a taste which I can understand. If you're considering playing the game and it has free rerolls, there are different ways you can go:
1. Use one character build because you want to, and probably can really specialise and be better with
2. Use different ch builds and decide by yourself when and what to reroll
If you limit ability to reroll, you will sure have the first way which is fun for you but less fun for people like me. Still it's the same for people who can hardly invest into grinding, which is quite big part of the player base.
For Cirn it's economics question, which I don't agree with. I believe that use of different type of equipment could and should be balanced by the cost of the equipment itself and its overall accessibility instead of indirect factors which could be easily bypassed by grinding anyway and limit not-grinding players in the same time.
But I'm starting to repeat myself here...
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Lots of 'reductio ad absurdum'* not really helping this thread forward. Think everyone agrees that the old system of 3 partial rerolls sucked. For new players like me it meant having to walk around with a dysfunctional character or grind a new one.
New system is a lot better. But it is perhaps a bit too convenient.
Restricting rerolls too much would be bad for everyone. But at the end of the day, as much as Paragon wants it to be, AOP isn't an isometric version of Insurgency. Its a role playing game with a strong focus on PvP. And in my opinion, free stuff doesn't have a place in RPGs. You need to do things to obtain gear and develop your character. So why should something so essential as being able to reroll that character come at no cost?
To me, a given number of free, full rerolls in combination with being able to save some profiles and the possibility of obtaining more rerolls by doing something would be a perfect solution.
IMO the ability to save profiles would actually be a very convenient thing for the PvP nazis among us. No more typing '~give me the motherfucking chocolate cirn you assfaced bastard' and having to do the reroll again after 10 mins because you forgot to set your tagged skills. No, need a snek? Load one and be combat ready in 5 seconds.
*here Stalker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum)
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To me, a given number of free, full rerolls in combination with being able to save some profiles and the possibility of obtaining more rerolls by doing something would be a perfect solution.
Agreed.
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> You need to do things to obtain gear and develop your character. So why should something so essential as being able to reroll that character come at no cost?
You still need to "obtain gear" with any character and "develop" it if you have any class at any point of the time. Won't be the same all the time, but who cares? What do you want more, more players which play because they like to or more grinders which play because they can get advantage?
I'm pretty sure I can implement ability to store builds client-side, it doesn't require to limit slots for characters at all. Heh, I bet if there'll be that restriction, it still will be client-side thus easy hackable, just start storing versions of client-side scripts right now and learn a little of disassembling routing for later. Although I'm not sure it's sent in assembled way at all.
The only arguments I hear from you guys is "It's not like in RPG" and "I personally don't want to reroll".
I would love to see how and where RPG says that ability to change your character should be limited.
Also I would love to point, that your taste is not a good argument at all.
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Free reroll and easy loot is not cause of emtpy server. Lack of end-game objectives for autists is. Making rerolls paid price higher than 1000 money is going full-retard and enjoying idea of making milion alts.
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The only arguments I hear from you guys is "It's not like in RPG" and "I personally don't want to reroll".
You mean beside the current abuse of players who constantly reroll to gain and edge on the battlefield ?
I would love to see how and where RPG says that ability to change your character should be limited.
You know that RPG means Role-playing game ? You play one role on the battlefield while other characters play other roles. You aren't playing a role if you change character every battle.
Beside, for the billion time already, it was never said that reroll itself would be removed entirely.
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Get a load of this kid, he thinks rerolling to counter the enemy is abuse.
Is this your first videogame? Do you consider building anti air defenses in a strategy game abuse if your opponent only has aircraft? Is it abuse to pick a different character in a fighting game on a bad matchup?
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Your character at each moment of the time can have only one role. That's exactly PRG, true.
Now you are trying to extend this idea by some restrictions which is only in your idea of what you want to call RPG. It is fallacy and therefore falsy.
So you call ability of 5 m1c players to reroll into close combat to fight 5 melee players camping the building "abuse", thus it gives away you lack of experience in organizing a team to keep active gameplay in situation of complete disadvantage. Yes, you can try to stand outside for 3 hours waiting for them to come out, but I don't think that it's the gameplay anyone wants.
I don't care how much times you're going to repeat that reroll won't be removed. The only acceptable solution to keep game free from obligatory grinding, keep players online and give them ability to fairly compete in pvp is to keep reroll cost extremely low and its mechanics widely accessible. Any other solution is unacceptable and will degrade AoP gameplay to TLAmk2/Fo2 alike
Now let's consider 2 different solutions of "slightly" limiting rerolls and not limiting the at all.
In the first situation, players will have access to some amount of builds which will be most probably highly different from each over, which doesn't suite to even your falsy definition of RPG. So what's point of limiting them to that small amount of builds? I don't see one except your taste.
There's no real arguments have been stated in this thread to limit rerolls except economics and personal players' taste. And in my opinion it has no comparison to all lost benefits.
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So you call ability of 5 m1c players to reroll into close combat to fight 5 melee players camping the building "abuse", thus it gives away you lack of experience in organizing a team to keep active gameplay in situation of complete disadvantage. Yes, you can try to stand outside for 3 hours waiting for them to come out, but I don't think that it's the gameplay anyone wants.
That 5 vs 5 scenario is the current phase of AOP. I doubt anyone, dev or community expect or intend to keep the playerbase that low. Also, with limited reroll, you wouldn't end up with a whole team composed by only a single kind of build. They would be more varied from the get go. No need to change those builds every five minutes. Also, there are ways to inflict them damage from windows or blows doors. At last, there is the balance thing. If one kind of build is overpowered so that it prevent the opponement to take any action, it needs to be balanced by the dev. For them to aknowledge the issue, they need a sufficient number of players able to notice it and point it to them. This won't happen if they all switch to melee too.
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Your idea of what devs want is falsy.
They stated many times that they want more small scale around the core instead of big scale in one place.
Anyway, your idea of using 20 m1c against 20 melee camping building is no better. Theoretically it's much less possible, yes, but if one team has overwhelming amount of close range against another team with overwhelming amount of high range low DPS, fight will not happen before exhausting waiting game, which every experienced player know and would like to avoid. Same if teams have no sneakers and in many other cases. You as someone who got used to get into building and wait for 40 minutes while my team carefully check every building surely should remember it, I'm only surprised why are you not trying to avoid it in future.
Builds are specialized and it's fine. It's good that someone builds are better than others and worse than others in the same time. It's exactly what you tried to call RPG.
Melee are good in buildings and it should be that way. It's also called RP fucking G.
Now I didn't see how limiting rerolls benefit anyone except your taste from your message.
Sorry, mate, your lack of understanding of game and social mechanics in combination of zealous talkability about it makes me question my adequacy because I still answering your messages.
Please, go back to calling v-tec a swarm instead. I'm done with conversations with you again.
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It is like saying that people must not pay for an education or medicine because we are a 21st century country; we must not pay for rerolls because we are a better game: so the government is going to subsidize rerolls. It is fascism and leads to societal decay.
I am with you on the argument for spending time in the game instead of staring at the char generator. It does need to be very cheap for low level players, and still reasonable for high level players.
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RPG in video games usually means having character progression through pve or pvp. Free unlimited reroll goes against character progression since you will only experience character progression once instead making alts. You could argue character progression in some games is a grind and boring but then the game is at fault.
In the end, we might end up with the most complex reroll system... save states, free reroll for certain patches, price based on character lvl and number of reroll done during the day... what else ?
https://youtu.be/S5camMoNw-o
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Your idea of what devs want is falsy.
They stated many times that they want more small scale around the core instead of big scale in one place.
That there should be more small scale battle around big ones doesn't mean playerbase should be low. The server isn't up just for the 20 of us that play it every day. If the server was only for us and the dev didn't intend more playerbase and more feature, it wouldn't be still online. You don't make an entire server running just for a few guys.
Also, you are the only leader that refuse to fight if he doesn't think he will win. The three other factions do dare to fight agains't the odds and sometimes win. And even amongs VTEC, when you aren't there, there are a few brave VTEC that dare to fight anyway, despite not having huge advantage. So don't try to apply a logic that work only for you to everyone else. We don't play the game to always have advantage, but for the thrill of the fight.
Now I didn't see how limiting rerolls benefit anyone except your taste from your message.
Sure, it won't benefit you to stop abusing a feature that wasn't intended for that. But it will stop being detrimental for the server and the other players.
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It is like saying that people must not pay for an education or medicine because we are a 21st century country; we must not pay for rerolls because we are a better game: so the government is going to subsidize rerolls. It is fascism and leads to societal decay.
I am with you on the argument for spending time in the game instead of staring at the char generator. It does need to be very cheap for low level players, and still reasonable for high level players.
Hue-hue, hello to Americans. Fascist decayed German society currently leads medicine, computer and many other sciences, as well as European economics in whole having wide-spread free higher education. Also I think some parts of medicine, but I some Germans could help me out here. So yes, that's exactly what free rerolls for, better game.
> Free unlimited reroll goes against character progression since you will only experience character progression once instead making alts.
So you INSIST that everyone should make alts. That's an unexpected argument, I don't even have anything to defend against with. Except the whole history of Fonlines showing that multi-charactering is pretty bad for anything trying to be balanced, fair and competitive. It's something like if DOTA will let you to use multiple accounts of yours in any amount in one game. Sure, you could consider this as a another question of taste and legit mechanics, free for everyone to use and requires skill to use it to win. But I think currently it's out of the discussion.
Character progression in AoP is endless by design, so I would say that forcing everyone to create alts and break it goes against character progression much sooner. Now again, show me any RPG guideline that ROLE should not be changed?
> In the end, we might end up with the most complex reroll system... save states, free reroll for certain patches, price based on character lvl and number of reroll done during the day... what else ?
Fully agreed, no need for it. Plain free rerolls and ability to reroll instantly in any pre-arranged builds will be enough.
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blyad germany gmbh
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Ok, i'll write my opinion as a player from mostly the start of the server.
First mistake i see from guys supporting free rerolls is that they pretend that no free rerolls ==no rerolls at all. Taking some fee for rerolls doesn't remove them from ya!
On the orher hand it makes you think before creating build. You don't just pull some shit togather and hope it will work. If you fail in your build-you pay for it.
Secondary, it will leave some "mystery" to builds. During the year I played on aop Ive seen hella lot of builds from other people. Of course some were more eficcient than others, but most of them were at least decent in the fight. And it was cool!
Free rerolls bring us to situation where all variatins of builds can be checked, and the best is found -> every1 uses same build.
Thirdly money sink. After FC was introduced Ive gotten about 100k of it just particapating in battles. And I didnt use most of it, as everything i need for battles, i loot there. Payed rerolls itself wontfix high inflation we have right now but surely it will help.
In my thoughts I imagined reroll system in this style-
1) noobs under X lvl(24?) Always have free rerolls, to try out new builds.
2) normal players have their reroll pool, that increments each day by 1.
3)rerolls could be bought for X price(500).
4) special reroll tokens drop from pve content+ as reward for pvp(could be traded between players).
But after Ive read idea about several "profiles" I think it would be very cool if possible :-)
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2. is the only one thing I didn't discuss in my posts yet.
Now with free rerolls people are still using different builds for same proposes. Can't deny it, can you?
And it will stay the same for everyone who creates builds for themself.
But if there's no free-rerolls and my friends will join the game, to not make a mistake, they will use my builds instead of creating own (: Because making mistakes is double pain when you can just take something optimised which everyone will try to avoid.
Before rerolls were introduced and still were limited In KotW only 2-3 people were making builds for everyone and one of them was me. On top of that I was making builds for the rest ~5-6 people playing with me in the beginning of the session.
Because if they fail and "progress their character through 2 weeks of pve" to finally be able to play pvp and the build is not effective, fuck this game.
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Alting is already toned down by the fact your character keeps levelling almost forever. (how many players reach the maximum since day one ?). Also, considering PVP itself amongs the best way to level up, you are less likely to "grind" characters somewhere else. You level up at your own pace. At last, characters are already pretty versatiles in having combat oriented skills and non-combat oriented skills separated. You don't need a crafter alt as you usually do in other servers. So AOP "encourages" you to have less characters, but doesn't punish you for having multiple chars. Many of us have 2-3 characters and those characters aren't weak even if some have lower level than others. (sometimes even less than lvl24). But the problem of other servers never was alting on itself, but multi-log and fast-relog in which bigger grinding teams had a few other alt on worldmap and just logged them after first character death. This is already countered by the ZC maps being far from WM, the unability to disapear after logging off in the city, and the possibility of your dead character being revived by your teammates. You gain nothing (or barely anything) by having an alt ready when you die. When there is no fast-relog/dual-log involved, alting creates no issues, give no upper hand, and isn't required. You don't have to make an alt for victory and you don't lose either if you do it. It comes to your own choice. (although it is more convenient for switching than having the same character change faction every time the current faction is too numerous. You just log character from faction X to play with faction X)
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When you want to limit something, the question you need to ask is what're you trying to benefit by it. Because limiting itself doesn't benefit anything. Limiting is a good tool in some cases but most of the time is just outcome of laziness. Good things don't need to be limited even if some stupid will use them incorrectly, or not everyone will like them, they are still good things for everyone else. Let's go back and see what arguments against free rerolls we had.
1. "RPG" - it's not an argument as have no basement under it, it's just your playstyle you're trying to push everyone in. You can't break me. I was searching but there's nothing saying that in RPG you have to stuck using one character or one role.
2. "Avoiding abuse of rerolling to get advantage " - it's called tactical approach to gameplay, which gives you ability to apply your knowledge of the game mechanics and enemy setup (which requires scouting and analyzing) to win Them and avoid the human doom and punishment for all your sins it, aka skill, leading ability, prediction and planning ability.
3. "Reroll mechanics improvements" - not required to implement. I can make it Alive it but it requires my blood pretty easy and usable without any limitations.
4. "Neglecting a҉̺̠͎͔dvantage of some group of players on other group of players" - same as 2nd, it's up to everyone to use or not to use this mechanics, Basic Multilingual Plane, he c͈͔̖̥͍̘omes but players able to do it obviously should be rewarded, being able to use game knowledge to outplay enemy team as a part of the̿̔̉ RPG!
5. "Avoid situation when players are being pushed into rerolls" - it's really some strange statement Ț̥o͡ ͍̤i̶͇͚̱̱͕n͚v̰͓͖͞o̧̮̫͈ͅḵ̗͉̣̰e̲̠̜ ͉̳͈͕͚̹̕ͅt͏̘̥̬h̫̞̥e̜̱̼̤̬̼ killing. Are those players also being pushed into giving away their money and equipment? I believe please it's not too late stop pushing on us accept your faith you don't understand it's up to every team to decide how they want to play, and anyone being pushed in anything is e̴ͅnd̙̤͍ͅl͇̲̰͞e̵̠̺s͏̠s̛ ̲͖ạ́rg̤͔̹̣͙̻͈̕u̫̩i̜͓̲͘n͍̣̜͘g̘ either considered useless for the team either has chosen wrong team for himself. Anyway, he should reroll or change team CHANGE your mind OPEN your eyes STOP IT STOP IT S̶T̖̝̞̹̬̗͠O̬̖̼̫ͅP̡͎̭̘͙͉ ̥̜̘I̪̬̺̳̺͚T.
6. "Letting players master their builds" - how does playing the same build help exactly? I͎̥̘̗͚̦͠t̰̕ ̥̦̫̟̬m͈̤͕̬͚͎͓a̯̠k̜͈̤̥̦è͉̩͈̘͖s͞ ̗yo͔u̼̗̝̝̭ ͍̱̝i͖͇̙͎̻̥̟t̴͉ͅs̸ ͓s̗̱̟l̗̙̣̬̗a̙͇͡v̰͍̲e͚͕͜ Being flexible and able to fat and easily adjust the build will help much more in my opinion, if you don't agree then j̡͖͇̝ͭ̈́̽͊ͦ̉o̞̿͂̆̚u͎̥͕̱̣̳ŗͯͦ̽̿n͍̟͙̳̊ͦ͒̆̚e̛̩͇̩͉ͩ̓̈́̒͐̉y̸͎̭̪ ̪̖͚̈́͊ͪ͑̃͜ͅi̡̜̩͛̒n͍̯͓̩̫̰͍͒̋ͣ̒̔t̤̰̩̼͑͑̍ͤ̓͡o̡̤͖͓͇̟͒̈́̅͊̌̀ ̛̙̙͍̹̻̫̈̊͌ͫͬ̓̇s̼̺̬͔̖͕̑ͪ͊̇u̺͆g̹̳̬͕͢ą͕͇̲̱̭͓͓̒̾̏r̥̦̳̩̤͕̦͊̃m̶̤͖̠̯̂̃ͣͯ̈́̆ͫaͪͫ̉̈ͣn̶̝ş͎̦̫̙͉̙̃̚ ͍ḽ̫͉̩̜͌̋ͫ̈́ä̰̺͈͖͙̩̂̎ͬ͆̕i͎̯̮̊ͨ̾̇̎ͤ̊r͕͓̘͇̱̆ why do not reroll, but don't limit those who learn by changes.
7. "Interaction" - i͙̲̮̼'̻̘m̮̗̝̩̥̰̹ ͠s̥͎̥͙̟͙p̫̬̭e̵͙̹̙a̝̪̝̪̞̬k͕͓̳̜i҉̙̘̺̟n̖͙̞̱͙g̩̜͓͕̳̪ͅ ̺͕ṭ̺͕̭̥ͅọ͓̰͔ ̕y̖̞̬̪̖͙ó̼͚͇u̶̞ ̢̺̪̺͉̹c͔̦͙͜ḥ̣͖o̳̳̰̬͕s̬̳̩̪͕é͖̖n͞ ̬͉͖̰̞̕o̝n͕̹̱è͉̱̙͓͕͖ FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE and your ZA̡͊͠͝LGΌ BLOOD I see how does it connected it's liquidly connected c̤͎̭̯̗̭o̹͖̺n̙n̖̖͙e̴̞c͏̬t̖̝͢e̗d̲̬͕ c̛͙͕̮͉̞͙̺͔͟ơ͙̱̩̹n̳̩̩̲͞lusions should be made by pOny everyo̜͔͈̰̞̬͘͠n̵҉̤̝̬̣͖̣ȩ̶̵͚̻͉̮͚ I CAN NOT RESIST IT S͢͏̙̲͍͓̠̹̼̟̟T̠̞͙͖͓͍̼͝O̡̡̤̬̼̥̝͉͎͚P̵҉̼͚̥͔ ̸̘̠͟͡T̷̨̛̰̱͙H̢̟̱̫I͙͇͡S̵̡̰̻̮ ̩͝ͅP̡͍A̸͔̹̹̜̪͔̮̲I̲͇͕̱̱̟̯͞Ń͎̝̻̯̳̻ ̵̵̛̗̦̤̯͇̝̹Ṕ̠̗͍L̴̞̝̭͝͡Ȩ̗͎̳̣̻͙͈͚̕A҉̦̗S̱͖̞̀̕E̠̖͍̤͙̟ H̸̡̪̯ͨ͊̽̅̾̎Ȩ̬̩̾͛ͪ̈́̀́͘ ̶̧̨̱̹̭̯ͧ̾ͬC̷̙̲̝͖ͭ̏ͥͮ͟Oͮ͏̮̪̝͍M̲̖͊̒ͪͩͬ̚̚͜Ȇ̴̟̟͙̞ͩ͌͝S̨̥̫͎̭ͯ̿̔̀ͅ
It looks like Mac Users see and generate Zalgo differently than Windows/Linux users...
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This discussion is getting out of control. It was funny to some extent to watch people refusing to listen to each other, but now it's becoming more and more repetitive. Rerolls should be unlimited in their essence until project declared finished, but should be controllable in the form of granting fixed amount on daily basis with additional granting by the GM decision. Any payment for rerolls will benefit nolifers and thus is a heresy. The only kind of activity in my opinion which could give access to additional rerolls is PVP (some variation of reputation system maybe). Also I consider rerolls overly overestimated in this topic. Rerolls are minor feature in terms of actual PVP usefulness. If you lack coordination, skill and numbers - you will wiped. Has been proven multiple times during the season by v-tec\lawyer swarms with changing amount of core skilled players and coordinators.
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When you want to limit something, the question you need to ask is what're you trying to benefit by it. Because limiting itself doesn't benefit anything. Limiting is a good tool in some cases but most of the time is just outcome of laziness. Good things don't need to be limited even if some stupid will use them incorrectly, or not everyone will like them, they are still good things for everyone else. Let's go back and see what arguments against free rerolls we had.
1. "RPG" - it's not an argument as have no basement under it, it's just your playstyle you're trying to push everyone in. You can't break me. I was searching but there's nothing saying that in RPG you have to stuck using one character or one role.
2. "Avoiding abuse of rerolling to get advantage " - it's called tactical approach to gameplay, which gives you ability to apply your knowledge of the game mechanics and enemy setup (which requires scouting and analyzing) to win Them and avoid the human doom and punishment for all your sins it, aka skill, leading ability, prediction and planning ability.
3. "Reroll mechanics improvements" - not required to implement. I can make it Alive it but it requires my blood pretty easy and usable without any limitations.
4. "Neglecting a҉̺̠͎͔dvantage of some group of players on other group of players" - same as 2nd, it's up to everyone to use or not to use this mechanics, Basic Multilingual Plane, he c͈͔̖̥͍̘omes but players able to do it obviously should be rewarded, being able to use game knowledge to outplay enemy team as a part of the̿̔̉ RPG!
5. "Avoid situation when players are being pushed into rerolls" - it's really some strange statement Ț̥o͡ ͍̤i̶͇͚̱̱͕n͚v̰͓͖͞o̧̮̫͈ͅḵ̗͉̣̰e̲̠̜ ͉̳͈͕͚̹̕ͅt͏̘̥̬h̫̞̥e̜̱̼̤̬̼ killing. Are those players also being pushed into giving away their money and equipment? I believe please it's not too late stop pushing on us accept your faith you don't understand it's up to every team to decide how they want to play, and anyone being pushed in anything is e̴ͅnd̙̤͍ͅl͇̲̰͞e̵̠̺s͏̠s̛ ̲͖ạ́rg̤͔̹̣͙̻͈̕u̫̩i̜͓̲͘n͍̣̜͘g̘ either considered useless for the team either has chosen wrong team for himself. Anyway, he should reroll or change team CHANGE your mind OPEN your eyes STOP IT STOP IT S̶T̖̝̞̹̬̗͠O̬̖̼̫ͅP̡͎̭̘͙͉ ̥̜̘I̪̬̺̳̺͚T.
6. "Letting players master their builds" - how does playing the same build help exactly? I͎̥̘̗͚̦͠t̰̕ ̥̦̫̟̬m͈̤͕̬͚͎͓a̯̠k̜͈̤̥̦è͉̩͈̘͖s͞ ̗yo͔u̼̗̝̝̭ ͍̱̝i͖͇̙͎̻̥̟t̴͉ͅs̸ ͓s̗̱̟l̗̙̣̬̗a̙͇͡v̰͍̲e͚͕͜ Being flexible and able to fat and easily adjust the build will help much more in my opinion, if you don't agree then j̡͖͇̝ͭ̈́̽͊ͦ̉o̞̿͂̆̚u͎̥͕̱̣̳ŗͯͦ̽̿n͍̟͙̳̊ͦ͒̆̚e̛̩͇̩͉ͩ̓̈́̒͐̉y̸͎̭̪ ̪̖͚̈́͊ͪ͑̃͜ͅi̡̜̩͛̒n͍̯͓̩̫̰͍͒̋ͣ̒̔t̤̰̩̼͑͑̍ͤ̓͡o̡̤͖͓͇̟͒̈́̅͊̌̀ ̛̙̙͍̹̻̫̈̊͌ͫͬ̓̇s̼̺̬͔̖͕̑ͪ͊̇u̺͆g̹̳̬͕͢ą͕͇̲̱̭͓͓̒̾̏r̥̦̳̩̤͕̦͊̃m̶̤͖̠̯̂̃ͣͯ̈́̆ͫaͪͫ̉̈ͣn̶̝ş͎̦̫̙͉̙̃̚ ͍ḽ̫͉̩̜͌̋ͫ̈́ä̰̺͈͖͙̩̂̎ͬ͆̕i͎̯̮̊ͨ̾̇̎ͤ̊r͕͓̘͇̱̆ why do not reroll, but don't limit those who learn by changes.
7. "Interaction" - i͙̲̮̼'̻̘m̮̗̝̩̥̰̹ ͠s̥͎̥͙̟͙p̫̬̭e̵͙̹̙a̝̪̝̪̞̬k͕͓̳̜i҉̙̘̺̟n̖͙̞̱͙g̩̜͓͕̳̪ͅ ̺͕ṭ̺͕̭̥ͅọ͓̰͔ ̕y̖̞̬̪̖͙ó̼͚͇u̶̞ ̢̺̪̺͉̹c͔̦͙͜ḥ̣͖o̳̳̰̬͕s̬̳̩̪͕é͖̖n͞ ̬͉͖̰̞̕o̝n͕̹̱è͉̱̙͓͕͖ FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE and your ZA̡͊͠͝LGΌ BLOOD I see how does it connected it's liquidly connected c̤͎̭̯̗̭o̹͖̺n̙n̖̖͙e̴̞c͏̬t̖̝͢e̗d̲̬͕ c̛͙͕̮͉̞͙̺͔͟ơ͙̱̩̹n̳̩̩̲͞lusions should be made by pOny everyo̜͔͈̰̞̬͘͠n̵҉̤̝̬̣͖̣ȩ̶̵͚̻͉̮͚ I CAN NOT RESIST IT S͢͏̙̲͍͓̠̹̼̟̟T̠̞͙͖͓͍̼͝O̡̡̤̬̼̥̝͉͎͚P̵҉̼͚̥͔ ̸̘̠͟͡T̷̨̛̰̱͙H̢̟̱̫I͙͇͡S̵̡̰̻̮ ̩͝ͅP̡͍A̸͔̹̹̜̪͔̮̲I̲͇͕̱̱̟̯͞Ń͎̝̻̯̳̻ ̵̵̛̗̦̤̯͇̝̹Ṕ̠̗͍L̴̞̝̭͝͡Ȩ̗͎̳̣̻͙͈͚̕A҉̦̗S̱͖̞̀̕E̠̖͍̤͙̟ H̸̡̪̯ͨ͊̽̅̾̎Ȩ̬̩̾͛ͪ̈́̀́͘ ̶̧̨̱̹̭̯ͧ̾ͬC̷̙̲̝͖ͭ̏ͥͮ͟Oͮ͏̮̪̝͍M̲̖͊̒ͪͩͬ̚̚͜Ȇ̴̟̟͙̞ͩ͌͝S̨̥̫͎̭ͯ̿̔̀ͅ
I think someone has to reset suff.
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Alting is already toned down by the fact your character keeps levelling almost forever. (how many players reach the maximum since day one ?). Also, considering PVP itself amongs the best way to level up, you are less likely to "grind" characters somewhere else. You level up at your own pace. At last, characters are already pretty versatiles in having combat oriented skills and non-combat oriented skills separated. You don't need a crafter alt as you usually do in other servers. So AOP "encourages" you to have less characters, but doesn't punish you for having multiple chars. Many of us have 2-3 characters and those characters aren't weak even if some have lower level than others. (sometimes even less than lvl24). But the problem of other servers never was alting on itself, but multi-log and fast-relog in which bigger grinding teams had a few other alt on worldmap and just logged them after first character death. This is already countered by the ZC maps being far from WM, the unability to disapear after logging off in the city, and the possibility of your dead character being revived by your teammates. You gain nothing (or barely anything) by having an alt ready when you die. When there is no fast-relog/dual-log involved, alting creates no issues, give no upper hand, and isn't required. You don't have to make an alt for victory and you don't lose either if you do it. It comes to your own choice. (although it is more convenient for switching than having the same character change faction every time the current faction is too numerous. You just log character from faction X to play with faction X)
I'm going to say it to you one last time. Fucking format your text. This post is an instant migraine attack.
Here:
'Alting is already toned down by the fact your character keeps levelling almost forever. (how many players reach the maximum since day one ?).
Also, considering PVP itself amongs the best way to level up, you are less likely to "grind" characters somewhere else. You level up at your own pace. At last, characters are already pretty versatiles in having combat oriented skills and non-combat oriented skills separated. You don't need a crafter alt as you usually do in other servers.
So AOP "encourages" you to have less characters, but doesn't punish you for having multiple chars. Many of us have 2-3 characters and those characters aren't weak even if some have lower level than others. (sometimes even less than lvl24).
But the problem of other servers never was alting on itself, but multi-log and fast-relog in which bigger grinding teams had a few other alt on worldmap and just logged them after first character death. This is already countered by the ZC maps being far from WM, the unability to disapear after logging off in the city, and the possibility of your dead character being revived by your teammates. You gain nothing (or barely anything) by having an alt ready when you die.
When there is no fast-relog/dual-log involved, alting creates no issues, give no upper hand, and isn't required. You don't have to make an alt for victory and you don't lose either if you do it. It comes to your own choice. (although it is more convenient for switching than having the same character change faction every time the current faction is too numerous. You just log character from faction X to play with faction X)'
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I hereby close this thread.
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teela best post in this thread yet.
Now I myself am guilty of typos way too often but structuring, as well as proper punctuation, are incredibly important.
Just to prove my point here, when you study english in a german university, you have to complete a class where all you have to do is to write a 5 paragraph argumentative essay on a given subject. If you write 4 paragraphs, you automatically fail. 6 paragraphs autofail. over or undershooting the word count bracket: autofail.
Literally not indenting each paragraph or leaving 2 lines of space between paragraphs rather than 1 when not indenting will also make you autofail.
It's surprising how many people autofail that class. People write how they think and just writing like this without any punctution which you are not guilty off here i think but i also didnt check right now maybe you did or not im too lazy to check right now but writing like this is bad dont do it ok just in case
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John ban yourself
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> When there is no fast-relog/dual-log involved, alting creates no issues, give no upper hand, and isn't required. You don't have to make an alt for victory and you don't lose either if you do it. It comes to your own choice. (although it is more convenient for switching than having the same character change faction every time the current faction is too numerous. You just log character from faction X to play with faction X)'
It's been involved from the beginning of AoP, although in relatively soft form. Passive FTL alts, sneakers/scouts, characters left on the WM to come back in the fight in 2 minutes instead of 5-7 (depending on which gate you have to enter), I think I've seen it several of times in the combats but never was able to prove.
The real proble̖m is that player with 1 character have 1 build available to play for all situations. And if it's 94-hexes DSR build, than he shouldn't pla̶͈y̵͈ 75% of the̋ time due to night where DSR sucks, building fights, corner fights, window fights, being outnumbered, rushing, playing without scout etc etc etc. And playe̋r with 10 alts can play in any situation with 100% efficiency. If you take the tee̋m of no-life̖rs It's fading they will have 10 people with 10 alts each and ability to dom̸̄inate Why don't you hear me against 10 evening-time players with 1 build each because they will could dictate the condition they want to fight all the time. And casual players will have to agree and b̡̺̲ḙ̻̠ ̮͇̤d̙̰̫ọ͚̬ṃ̳̤i̮͖̯ņ̡̜a̢̜̫t̙͎̼ę̫̭ḑ̻͚ or stop playing at all. If casual players would be able to reroll in this situation, than alting wouldn't give any Death will bring you advantage, but it's not the fucking Z̴̦̺̥̉̽͘Á̸̧͈̗̏͠Ļ̷̧͖́̈́͂G̵͎̰̱̽͆̕ case.
In this case it is required to have multiple d̷͉̳̰͊̋̀į̵̫͛̉́͜f̸͚͚̖̒͆͝f̶̙̜̒̄̎ͅḛ̶̻̫̄̂͌ṙ̶͚̫̮̀̒ȅ̴̪̥̦̅̀n̴͔̮̞̿͗͊ṭ̴̨̢̄̀͑ ̷̖͔͙̽̓̃w̴̦̲̞̄̕͠o̶̧̲̜͛̂̎r̸̗̠̫̽̓͂l̶͎̖̿̍̚ͅd̷̰͋̓̅͜͜s̸̪̺̞̔̐͆ chars to be able to compete And try to stay alive with someone who has them. I'm not surprised that John is supporting this m̵͎̹͍̀̾̎à̵̰̟̮̐̿ḍ̴̨̠͐͗͒ń̸̳̯̞͒̓ḙ̶̗̰̄̓̋s̸̱̻̙̐̇̆s̸͓̝̦͊̈́͂ ̶̢̯̜̀̉̏m̸̢̙͇͆̐̋ä̴̘̤͎́̉͘ď̷͈̦̯̽͘n̴̻̱̤͗͋͒ȇ̵̺̯̲̓͌s̴̨̫̘̈́͛͝s̵̮̱̀̃̓͜ because he's never been required to fight s̴͈̹͖̏̐̔ů̷͍̮̫͗̀r̶͍͇̍́͘͜r̵̩̮͈͑̈͝ȇ̴̢̘̲̔̕n̴̩͓͔̍̀͠d̶̗̝̜̒̿̇e̸͇̼͈̔̈̏r̶͇̲̖̍̇̄ with one char in all situations or lead team with hard stuck loadout. Sorry John, but it took very weak a̶̟̭̙͌̔͠ñ̵̨͙̉͘ͅd̵͖̞͔͛͗̚ ̷̧̖̺̆̋͝t̸̰̼̳̑̾͝h̴͕̦͉̊͐͂i̶̧̛̤̝͌͠n̵̬̜̺̿̈́̏ ̶̤͙͍̅͛͠ḁ̴̧̼͒͌͘s̸͓̠͎̈́̇́ ̶̘͖̝̾̈́́y̵̡̲̙̎̏͗ơ̷̢̛͈͗ͅu̵͕͓̯̅̋͘r̴̝͈̀͒͜͠ ̴̱͎̬͆̄͝l̵̙͔͓̐͐̑ì̷̘̫̘̐̐f̵̺̰̰̿̾̍ẻ̵̖̱͚͌̔ point to favorite.
I described this situation 3-4 times and ĩ̵̳̯͇̊̾f̴̳͎̜̋̓̕ ̷̣̲͎̿̊́y̸̙͖̥͆͐̏o̴͎̤͈͒̉̿ú̷̮̥̮͌͝ ̴̟͇́̓̇ͅh̴̦̦͑͘͜͠a̸͕͎̦͒͊͒v̸̡̘̥̓̍͝ḛ̵̡̪̏̆̆ñ̵̪̟̩͛͝'̷̨̜̝͗͆͛ţ̴̛̞͋̂͜ ̸̫͇͓̓̈̀g̵̟͙͍̓̊̚ò̴̼̼̰̿͝t̷̞̤̎̃̉͜ ̴̳̫̘͊̚̚ï̶̱̫͉̅͝t̷̢̛̙̥͒̈́ ̴̠̭͗̒͜͠y̸͈̼̰͋̈́̈ẻ̴̙̗́̑͜ẗ̴̠̮͈́͊̚ until now NOW OR NEVER, and call ability to have alts "not required, no upper hand" than you're really talking b̴̦̰̱̅̾̄l̴̮͓̲̔̌̓a̶̫͉̙͑̒͘c̵̡͖̜͊̈̅k̶̢̰͇͊͐͝ ̷̢̡̪̏͛̃l̴̢͍̲̐̊́ĩ̴̦̦̩̽̽q̴̼̮͎̒̈́̀u̸̟̮̿́̚͜ị̷̧͉̈͊̋ḋ̷̗̹̹̌̆ about something you have no idea about İ̴̛̠̭̬̔T̵̼̝͇̑̐͝ ̴̰͔̱̀̔̔C̴̳̱̟̐̃̍Ơ̴̱̪̗͛̈M̴̘̗̼͑̄̇È̸̻͖͉͗̏S̷̨̱͙̄̑̈́.
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Introduce a testing area for builds inside the firing range. Where they can mix and match all the SPECIAL STATS and perks etc.
Give people three builds to make and change between for free.
If they wish to modify any of those builds they have to pay a very high price indeed.
Problem solved?
Good idea!
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teela best post in this thread yet.
Now I myself am guilty of typos way too often but structuring, as well as proper punctuation, are incredibly important.
Just to prove my point here, when you study english in a german university, you have to complete a class where all you have to do is to write a 5 paragraph argumentative essay on a given subject. If you write 4 paragraphs, you automatically fail. 6 paragraphs autofail. over or undershooting the word count bracket: autofail.
Literally not indenting each paragraph or leaving 2 lines of space between paragraphs rather than 1 when not indenting will also make you autofail.
It's surprising how many people autofail that class. People write how they think and just writing like this without any punctution which you are not guilty off here i think but i also didnt check right now maybe you did or not im too lazy to check right now but writing like this is bad dont do it ok just in case
Well, i only talked about one thing, within a single flow on my last post. It would have been out of place to write more than one paragraph and trick you into believing that i mentioned several topic, or that i wanted to separate it into parts for emphasis. It was on one paragraph on purpose.
This isn't for denying Teela wish for more structured post with several paragraph to separate ideas within a single text and i am sometimes guilty of not separating enough. Just want to make clear that it was on purpose on last post. (even considered the idea of paragraph separation when posting it. It just felt out of place for this one.)
(Still, the fact it was on purpose doesn't mean i was automatically right)
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Just to prove my point here, when you study english in a german university
Meanwhile in France, english classes are terrible.
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And casual players will have to agree and b̡̺̲ḙ̻̠ ̮͇̤d̙̰̫ọ͚̬ṃ̳̤i̮͖̯ņ̡̜a̢̜̫t̙͎̼ę̫̭ḑ̻͚ or stop playing at all.
You've finally figured it out, congrats. Casual players HAVE agreed to stop playing because of the insane domination by min-maxing no-lifers. Its the mentality, and it cannot be changed. Alts, no walls mods, scripts, even rerolls now, are part of the same "Its only fun to win everytime" section IMO. I am not that concerned about changing up what I love doing in fallout all the goddamn time just to pretend like AoP is seriously competetive or something. I want people to have to fucking think about what they do, and create MORE FUCKING VERSATILE BUILDS instead of maxing out the stats for your only role to play. Your problem is you want to be able to min-max on the fly, and I don't think thats fair to be able to completely change your playstyle in 2 mins and now anything anyone knew about your playstyle is useless. It makes knowing how people play and what they're likely to do not a factor, which is just plain wrong; You have camo for that.
When I started, this game seemed to reward being more flexible with weapon and tactic choices, rather than the min maxing shit I described. Making rerolls cost something would make people create chars for a wider variety of roles, rather than super-duper specialization. Either that or people would just create 10 alts and be total asshats like I expect out of the FOnline community.
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or people would just create 10 alts and be total asshats like I expect out of the FOnline community.
congratulations you just dismantled all of your arguments yourself
free rerolls = level playing field for everyone instead of advantage for people with enough time to make 10 chars
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I and every competitive player will play only "min-max" build anyway. So the question is will I have 10 min-max builds or 1.
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10 is better
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good luck leveling up 10 guys to level whatever they need 50-100 next season.
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or people would just create 10 alts and be total asshats like I expect out of the FOnline community.
congratulations you just dismantled all of your arguments yourself
free rerolls = level playing field for everyone instead of advantage for people with enough time to make 10 chars
And thats whats sad. The exploitative mindset of players in Fonline. No matter what way it gets put people are going to find a way to game the system. Free rerolls or not people who have a lot of time on their hands are just going to win regardless. I would like them not to be free so I could stick with a build and learn to be better with that build, not constantly swithcing what Im doing around and never having time to get used to what Im doing. Most people here (myself not included) are experienced fonline vets. You know what you like, you know how to use what, its not an issue for you to move around gear. "Casual" players don't know how everything works, don't know all the tricks of every weapon class and dmg modifiers etc etc. It takes time to learn how to play a certain way, and with free rerolls newbs get other people imposing their will on them and basically ordering them to change up their builds every fight, which only serves to make them more confused oftentimes and detriments their ability to play a role.
I and every competitive player will play only "min-max" build anyway. So the question is will I have 10 min-max builds or 1.
Competetive? I understand friendly competition but the way you treat it is unhealthy in my opinion. There just isn't a way for players who aren't "serious" fallout savants to play without feeling like they're completely useless at the hands of people who spend days pondering builds. I'm not saying thats a bad thing (to ponder your builds wisely), but this game will never have a large playerbase due to the people that inhabit it.
I think the root of the problem isn't rerolls, its the players. Funny enough this is the friendliest Fonline I've ever played, but as a relative newb to most of it I've rarely had constructive critisism thrown at me. It's either direct commands (which aren't a problem but its not like anyone wants to discuss anything to find out why you didnt want to do something), "git gud", or "Stop playing the way you like to." The community has to change it's mindset if it wants anyone but the most "hardcore" players to play on it.
tldr; Its not rerolls that are the issue. Its all of us.
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Funny enough this is the friendliest Fonline I've ever played, but as a relative newb to most of it I've rarely had constructive critisism thrown at me.
Change your faction ::) You 'll be pleasantly surprised.
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"min-maxed" build will work from 24 level. You don't really require levels, because you can't reroll and "min-max" main character. It's an certain disadvantage, sure, but I will certainly take I'll explain why.
I thought about "min-maxed" builds and would honestly want to now what do you exactly call by it. Could you show me min-maxed and balanced DSR? min-maxed and balanced RL/milkor builds? min-maxed and balanced close-range (shotgun etc) builds? For me it'd be pretty hard task, maybe i'm just bad at character-building.
If you think that you can make balanced build for DSR/RL/milkor/close range in the same time, than I will certainly say that nobody needs rerolls.
Then I though about "no upper hand" in alting and it reminded me how people were complaining that killing somebody in 15vs15 fights didn't matter. Because they were able to come back in the fight too soon and positions weren't changed so they just took their gear and fought again. If my team will have to create several 24 level characters, I will encourage everyone to use them the same way, leaving characters on the wm and joining battle with an alt as soon as possible. Basic wave fighting from any other Fonline, it's just a huge luck that it hasn't been seen here before much.
Than Marxman you're telling everyone to "get used to one build to get better with it", as someone from your team stated many times, your builds are probably pretty bad. I don't mind if you personally don't care and don't want to learn. But I mind a lot if you mess with everyone else who would love to improve and get better with the character building and mechanics understanding but they can't because you personally don't want to reroll. I don't see how playing with shit build will teach you anything except that you probably suck at the game.
I, "as experienced Fonline vet", can play any role from sneaker and CC to DSR, and I have no reason to limit myself with one build I explained many times why. I can understand someone's taste to not do it, but not with his statement that it makes him better with game. Because until you play with it, you won't figure out how does it actually work.
Then again that "People ordering you to change build" argument. If you play the game and somebody makes you to play it differently from what you want, I doubt anything can help you at all. If you have shitty team experience, don't try to extend it to all and limit everyone in their choices to defend players from your shitty team. But if you join the team you like to play and want to get an advice how to be better and more helpful for the team, it's the only way to ask for the advice what build to play.
V-tec consisted mostly of uncompetitive players most of the time of this season lead and organised by competitive players. In the same time, causal v-tec player in my opinion was often worse than from different faction. Ability to learn from competitive players made them better, it became possible only because they wanted to learn with "min-maxed" builds instead of dying with balanced. They are still here with us, part of AoP community. Again I see how you bad team experience makes you think that everyone suffers from you problems, when it's not.
Now when I read up to the end of your post, I see how I was correct with idea of your message (:
Well, then probably I was wrong trying to defend rerolls from you, it came unexpectedly that you're not really against it. I'm really tired of destroying same and same arguments again and again THIS PAIN, ḅ̷̯̭̔̑͝ų̸͕͈̏̉̂ţ̵͍̬͊͆͝ ̸̧͙͙́͆̆y̷̢͕̹͂̎̀ŏ̸̟̲͉̿̄u̵̞̗̙͌̋̓ ̴̛͉̯̥̔͝c̷̥̳͒̍̔͜ả̷̻̫͗̌͜n̶̡̙̣̉̽͌ ̶̟͓͉̎̿͌b̸̡̬̞̏͛͌r̷̨̼̠̆̐͋ȇ̴̮̙̼̋̏á̵̻͉͊̎ͅk̴̛̤͓̪̎̕ ̸̛̲͕̝̏̒m̷̡͔̫̄͐̚e̵͚͕͍̾̽͝,̶̪̮͕́̎̀ ̷̹̫͆̋̒͜, and I will stand here to the end when it Ī̵̝̙͇̔́T̸͚͕̝̀̂͠ ̸̢̤̯̏̈́̚C̵̻̎̒̐͜ͅǪ̷͖̚̚͝ͅM̷̘̫̘̉͑͛Ẹ̵͕̠͆͊͂S̷̟̞͚̈́̔́
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One argument for rerolls to stay in game.
Top 10 PVP players.
You remove reroll, make sure you create system where characters can be linked to one account.
One more thing. Min-max and being versatile, in my opinion, they aren't all that different. All comes down to weapons after all.
An example:
Versatile build with steyr.
(http://i.imgur.com/yQjm5B5.jpg)
Specific build for pancor(white), metal mk2.
(http://i.imgur.com/AQQKPEx.jpg)
The first one (versatile) is really strong and tanky.
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Suff, you are the one that intend to impose free unlimited reroll to everyone else, not Marx.
Hellmoi. Reroll won't be removed. It will be regulated.
Same for Suff. Stop arguing like it was unlimited free reroll vs no reroll at all.
You are off-topic most of the time.
Also, stop considering reroll like a feature. It is a tool for testing purpose, not a mean to win battles. (and you know it)
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I would like rerolls to remain free.
Look at it this way, if rerolls remain free, then when a squad is defeated in battle, they don't need to quit the game but simply change tactics. There comes free rerolls, they encourage people to change tactics, thus smaller chance for rage quit.
You need to find ways to encourage people to stay in game as long as possible, without too much grinding. Rerolls for 1k or 500 normal caps. You get normal caps now mostly from PVE. Dungeons and stuff like that.
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learn to play with the build u have , its same like saying guns kill humans , its always humans that kill humans
imo its not x y build which makes some player a good player , or weapon x y ... in aop u have good balanced weaponclasses atm anyway so u cant say o ive tagged ew but there are no good gunz in it ... like in other fonlines. also think about what u doing before u do it , its just a natural thing , can someone lock this thread now ... free rerolls were never meant to be a feature , go read the changelog were it was introduced 4 this season...
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> in aop u have good balanced weaponclasses atm anyway so u cant say o ive tagged ew but there are no good gunz in it
AHAHAHAHAHAHAA, so much EW users, EVERYWHERE
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Seems the ability to "reshuffle cards" when having a defeat in PvP is really a strong point in favor of rerolling. Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use? Or in general are "losers" the only ones who'll reroll in any case during a PvP session?
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dont let em fool you , i strongly believe paragon never heard of natures peace or a lazergatling or a turbo plasma rifle , but eh hes right EW is non existent in aop ...
combatants first legendary was a sneakweapon right ?
bahahahahaha i could go on but this thread is just hilarious ...
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Seems the ability to "reshuffle cards" when having a defeat in PvP is really a strong point in favor of rerolling. Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use? Or in general are "losers" the only ones who'll reroll in any case during a PvP session?
I don't think there's an strict dependency on losing. If you can't seem to win with current team set, you are encouraged to try to change tactics and reroll. Although most of the time it needs to fill some unclosed holes. Like if you fight against multiple melee and have no Avenger/Minigun, you will get one even if you've won, because next time it might go differently and you can be overwhelmed easily. If you fight against PowerArmor you don't have specific anti-PA weapons which are often different common used, you will certainly have to bring some next fight or might be just unable to kill a guy.
In my team most of the rerolls are made by just 3-5 people. The rest are playing with the same build most of the time. Those players who sees weak points of the team and afraid of losing will most probably fill the hole themselves or being asked by the operation leader. Like if you're in the field without sneaker against enemy team having one, you'd like always to avoid open space. It means that you'll come to the zone with the enemy, take first acceptable position and will camp forever. Ability to reroll lets to be more flexible in such situations and answer to the enemy if he's using some hard-beatable tactics like camping buildings well-defended from range fighters with close combat fighters.
If you have limited amount of "reroll slots", you can not expect one person to be able to fill the hole all the time. For the team limited amount of "reroll slots" will mean that people who doesn't want to reroll will have to make it more often to carry the team.
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So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun, instead of providing feedback to balance combat between melee and other non-minigun build and help the server, you would create a minigunner out of the blue and not report the issue with melee being invincible agains't anything but minigun. So, outside the ZC crowd, any wanderer in the core will be much longer at the mercy of OP melee. Hell, you can't report an issue if you can avoid it entirelly by using tool outside of their purpose.
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blyad , why i have seen tecs camping with 3 sneaks then kurwa ... this whole thread shud be moved to river of tearz section
its like i said before better learn how to play a certain build before whining about rerollcost , melee can be beaten with everything not only a minigun , ive heard some sg weapons have supression too , ive also heard that criplling the legs should work so i dunno what your whole posts are about serious ... its like cryin that u were defeated because u did use what u had in the wrong way and then u blame it all o the minigun , which is hilarious too ...
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So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun
Like if you fight against multiple melee and have no Avenger/Minigun, you will get one even if you've won, because next time it might go differently and you can be overwhelmed easily.
blyad , why i have seen tecs camping with 3 sneaks then kurwa ... this whole thread shud be moved to river of tearz section
What are you talking about ?
Guys, focus! I know english class in different countries is a very interesting matter but we can't let free reroll win.
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My point isn't about melee and minigun, but about the logic used to face that issue. Instead of trying to find a solution within your classes abilities and report it if not possible, you avoid the problem entirelly by creating a counter-unit on the fly. So if the problem exist, it remains forever and is never balanced by the dev team.
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Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use?
Yes, and that's the best thing about free (or minimum cost) rerolls. This adds another layer to battles and keeps everything interesting.
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My point isn't about melee and minigun, but about the logic used to face that issue. Instead of trying to find a solution within your classes abilities and report it if not possible, you avoid the problem entirelly by creating a counter-unit on the fly. So if the problem exist, it remains forever and is never balanced by the dev team.
How is that a problem? Does everything need to be 50:50 against each other?
Should i cry to starcraft devs when i am building zerglings and enemy comes with aircraft? No, I should change my strategy
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Don't the enemy teams do the same, making it a chess game where players try to guess what'll be the next combination the opposing team is going to use?
Yes, and that's the best thing about free (or minimum cost) rerolls. This adds another layer to battles and keeps everything interesting.
it just adds another layer of timespending with other things than actually playing the game , plus it pretends the casual player from learning how to play a certain class because all pros will tell em to reroll after every battle because they think he sucks because he uses the wrong weapon while in fact its not the weapon which makes a casual player weak its more the experience he has in general which can never develop while rerolling more then playing the game ... we really just talk about these level 24 perks and some other variations which from my point of view arent making such a big difference , so all these people who cry for free rerolls just want to go with the best avialable level 24 perk , which fits to the weapon they did choose ... imo this is some bullshit ofcourse u can make 10 alts for that suppose , imo its way better if u add some rerollcost to that so people really think about what they prefer and what not because killing melee isnt only possible with a minigun BLYAD ... one of the things i like abut aop the most is the design itself , you arent forced , like some people described here , to take just certain stuff with your x y build ... aop is in most parts balanced to these aspects and has some wide variation within its gameplay which i enjoy personally ... and there is no single argument which speaks against a cost for rerolls , ofcourse u will get your free reroll if balance is touched by some update , or like stated before u have to pay if u want to go with the specialised perks each time because u think it makes u better which is a lie in the end from my point of view ......
you can talk about this subject whole days , nobody is saying anyway that rerolls gonna get rekt , its just that it will cost something which is fine imo ... otherwise my counter argument is why does all the other stuff ingame cost me ingame cash caps , dollarz whatever ...
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Ramon >
How is it a problem ?
You mean beside those mentioned in this post ?
So if you are unable of killing a melee without minigun, instead of providing feedback to balance combat between melee and other non-minigun build and help the server, you would create a minigunner out of the blue and not report the issue with melee being invincible agains't anything but minigun. So, outside the ZC crowd, any wanderer in the core will be much longer at the mercy of OP melee. Hell, you can't report an issue if you can avoid it entirelly by using tool outside of their purpose.
Or the fact you didn't find a solution agains't that build ingame by trying better positionning, use of cover etc... to verify that it is indeed impossible to win agains't melee (as an example) or, by imaginative and find actual solution agains't it. Instead of that you magically create a new unit that is OP vs melee ? How creating a new problem solve will the first one ?
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Still dont see the problem. So you do want all weapons to be equal in all situations.
Im lucky you arent in charge of game design or balancing, would make for a boring experience.
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Niamak, I didn't get what you wanted to say.
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Honestly, I also don't get it how power of interpretation is so strong.
Melee vs minigun was just an example for the question "do winners reroll?". Yet, Naossano and Courier interpret it as "melee is OP minigun is OP". Courier's regular daydreaming goes on about "vtech always many sneaks!".
At least, Naossano raises the interesting subject "after a loss should you change role instead of trying to make better use of positionning, cover, timing, etc...". Paragon answered earlier by saying changing role would allow more flexibility/options to beat opposing team.
I would disagree here, giving too much flexibility to the player is not always the best idea. In games, restrictions and rules make things interesting. For example, in poker, would having 4 sets of hand and unlimited ability to reshuffle your hand make the game more interesting ? Not really, what is interesting is the ability of a player to make best use of his limited ressources within fixed restriction and game rules.
All this to get back to the subject "git gud or reroll" we had earlier in this thread.
suka let's put more nails in this free reroll coffin blyad HAHAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious no
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In the same time in poker if you see that current situation with your hand most probably won't work, you give up and get new one.
Rerolling would be same as getting new one instead of leaving the table.
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Anyway, poker is a shitty game.
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Still dont see the problem. So you do want all weapons to be equal in all situations.
You have to learn layers ramon.
Not all weapons should be equal, but all classes should have some chances of winning vs all classes. Even if some classes has better chances of beating other classes in some types of battlefield, that should never be 100% of winning. The fun of fight is that both groups have some chances of winning. If or non-minigun character (Once again Melee and minigun are just example, it isn't saying that those are currently OP on aop) is walking the core and encounter the melee, and the melee manage to corner him, that non-minigun character, if good and ressourcefull, should have some chance of beating the melee even if the melee is a better class that him on that battlefield. If the melee wins 100% of the time agains't that char, something should be done to balance it.
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Talking about offtop.
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RPG in video games usually means having character progression through pve or pvp. Free unlimited reroll goes against character progression since you will only experience character progression once instead making alts. You could argue character progression in some games is a grind and boring but then the game is at fault.
In the end, we might end up with the most complex reroll system... save states, free reroll for certain patches, price based on character lvl and number of reroll done during the day... what else ?
https://youtu.be/S5camMoNw-o
Just watched the vid and it looks like it's an argument in benefit of free rerolls, thank you.