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[cirn0]

We've only recently cemented the roles of each weapon groups, which actually makes balancing much easier when we have a clear role / motif for each weapon type. I feel there isn't that big of a balance issue left in current season but there is room for improvements always. If you feel there is an issue of course always voice your concerns. Best if you have a well thought out arguments about specific things that you feel should be reviewed.   

Regarding failures, lowering expectations and generally shit deving. Sometimes we see its shit, and know its shit, but we implement it anyways just to see how it looks on the walls. But most of the times its just me being retarded.

So I'm not saying we're the best, but

Spoiler for Hiden:

benis benis benis.

[faopcurious]

You make statements like "Not to mention its going to be spam fest when everyone is trying to kill each other with zip guns in ZC." - Who is taking a zip gun to ZC seriously?

Also answer my questions, "its rude to ignore people."

What was your question? Who taking zip gun to ZC?  That was just an example of using tier 1 weapons because that is what everyone will be using, tier 1s.

Edit:  You mean when was the last time I played?  didn't you see Stalkers reply?  He just killed me the other day, I thought Stalker answered the question for me

[faopcurious]

You care to link to that tec tree in the art section?  Couldn't find it.
Also, I think you meant close minded, not narrow minded.

Also, if you guys couldn't balance the weapons what makes you think you can do it with tiers? Thats just going to make any balance you do for each tier even more difficult.

please elaborate more on how bad the balance was this season.
Also, narrowminded was a quote. You're also now using the term balance differently than before

I'm using the term balance differently because you informed me that something can be tiered, AND balanced but still have levels. But my argument is, tier 5's still have to be as good as other tier 5's, etc, etc.

Seriously? Like pick a random gun, it is probably under powered or over powered.  Every time I try to use a weapon apparently it's the ''wrong'' one to use, and I should use ____ instead.

A lot of pistols are still kind of pathetic, some rifles, and assault rifles are better than others.  And pancor is still best shotgun, no real need to use the other ones, at least last time I checked which was a few months or so ago.

[Stem Sunders]

Three questions, first post I made. Yes I read stalkers post, but who knows when you can take that guy seriously.

Also, please. Edit your posts and stop doubling up.

[faopcurious]

Three questions, first post I made. Yes I read stalkers post, but who knows when you can take that guy seriously.

Also, please. Edit your posts and stop doubling up.

1, and 2 are kind of the same question, what else would I be doing? Of course in ZC.
3:  When did I ''try out mechanics."  ?  Like testing weapons? Just the other day.

And I'll double post if I want   2 different people, 2 different posts.   Easier to read that way.

[John Porno]

>few months ago

Ok we all know you didnt nearly play as much as a lot of other aop'ers and the fact you are being told you keep using the wrong weapons kinda makes me think that maybe you wouldnt be in a position to complain about bad balance. Especially not about a not yet existing balance which would be bad in the future.

[cirn0]

I've explained it before but its buried somewhere, even took me a while to dig it up wew.

http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2645.msg22277#msg22277

[faopcurious]

>few months ago

Ok we all know you didnt nearly play as much as a lot of other aop'ers and the fact you are being told you keep using the wrong weapons kinda makes me think that maybe you wouldnt be in a position to complain about bad balance. Especially not about a not yet existing balance which would be bad in the future.

lol, what?  I played recently, I just mean a few months ago with the shotguns because I haven't been using them.
Anyone who plays is in a position to complain about balance, it effects me as much as it does the next guy
I don't play as much as people who play every day, so I can't complain about balance?  John, slap yourself in the face, that is really just stupid logic.

[cirn0]

You should backup your claims and opinions with facts or at the least anecdotes so we can see where you are coming from because we don't have the clear picture what it is in your perspective the problem.

For the regular players can they can discuss a topic and we see where they are coming from because we have already established an ongoing continuity of "what the fuck is going on" and concluded "shit is fucked!".

The same process we're trying to do right now with you.

So basically, what exactly specifically absolutely do think is the balancing problems?

Saying take a gun any gun doesn't help narrow it down. Take a pistol any pistol is still too broad. If you haven't read the above link I posted, please do so we can be on the same page.

[faopcurious]

Just a quick test, and I can see Pancor is better than Combat Shotgun in almost every way.
They are too similar, so the Combat Shotgun has no tactical advantage, just all around not as good of a gun.
The single shot of the CSG has slightly less ap, which is trivial at best compared to what the Pancor does.
More damage + double tap, and the damage adds up, way less shots to kill.   I think the Combat Shotgun could benefit from less damage, but give it limb shredder, or better knock outs, or something tactical.  Alternatively one might make the Pancor do more damage, but jam up more, and break faster.  Or, make Pancor full damage dealer, and give Combat Shotty all of the knock down perks, or some combination thereof.  I dunno.

We all knew the game was not balanced, I don't know why no one is backing me up on this, but no one is trying to point a finger.  We know this is a work in progress, I just don't see how adding more weapons, and tiers is going to make it easier to balance things, it's only going to make it harder for you.  You say it would be easier, but I don't think so.

[cirn0]

You aren't reading the link I linked

[faopcurious]

You aren't reading the link I linked

ok, I'll read it again

Edit:  I read it again.... what did I miss?   Howcome we aren't seeing eye to eye here?

Edit:  You mean the part about just changing the stats to balance things? I totally get that, but right now even if you just look at the numbers, pancor beats CSG. 

[Kurwier]

You aren't reading the link I linked

ok, I'll read it again

Edit:  I read it again.... what did I miss?   Howcome we aren't seeing eye to eye here?

well i got your point fao and i must say im on your side when it comes down to tectrees and stuff but i can also see what cirno is meaning , literary u get way less weapons within its tier range and if u make all tiers kinda same then u get some better overlook hehe ...

on the other hand i dont know why somebody wud implement tiers which are all the same and just doing different dmg weeh ...

im on your side fao man im on your side , but it is what it is and we have to see how zipgun battles turn out ... isnt it amazing

Spoiler for For Cirnbruh:

i tried to look on lootables and how they working and i gave up , cirn left me alone in the deepest darkness of lidae code

[cirn0]

So for argument sake, we'll address them as the "Meta" tier of each subclasses I don't believe it is necessary to keep multiple weapons of the same subclass at the "Meta" level. 

So for the time being, I'm just asking you to be patient and instead of addressing specific weapons, address a specific subclass. That to us is much more critical as we move ahead. I want each subclass of weapons to be unique to another and most importantly fun, thus it is important we don't homogenize them.

So what we look at isn't Pancor VS CSG, but at shotgun vs whatever as a whole. We have one or two weapons to represent that whole subgroup and if we can get enough imagimotivation we'll add sidegrade weapons into the subgroup. So in this regard, we kind of feel the balance between  the subgroups is 3/4 pgud.

We ain't trying to doing linear improvements with our tier system. We kinda model the tiers simulate warfare of specific eras such as civil war, wildwest, ww1, ww2, vietnam to whatever we got now. A "lets have a little bit of fun before the srs kill each faction off for good" phase of the game.

Ultimately, this arena team deathmatch gameplay isn't what AoP is about but I certainly understand how people can really enjoy it.

[faopcurious]

So for argument sake, we'll address them as the "Meta" tier of each subclasses I don't believe it is necessary to keep multiple weapons of the same subclass at the "Meta" level. 

So for the time being, I'm just asking you to be patient and instead of addressing specific weapons, address a specific subclass. That to us is much more critical as we move ahead. I want each subclass of weapons to be unique to another and most importantly fun, thus it is important we don't homogenize them.

So what we look at isn't Pancor VS CSG, but at shotgun vs whatever as a whole. We have one or two weapons to represent that whole subgroup and if we can get enough imagimotivation we'll add sidegrade weapons into the subgroup. So in this regard, we kind of feel the balance between  the subgroups is 3/4 pgud.

We ain't trying to doing linear improvements with our tier system. We kinda model the tiers simulate warfare of specific eras such as civil war, wildwest, ww1, ww2, vietnam to whatever we got now. A "lets have a little bit of fun before the srs kill each faction off for good" phase of the game.

Ultimately, this arena team deathmatch gameplay isn't what AoP is about but I certainly understand how people can really enjoy it.

Right, so in other words you will fix it later?  It's a WIP,  in the meantime I'm an asshole to my faction if I use Combat Shotgun instead of Pancor ( or the best weapon of a subgroup).  But like I said, not pointing fingers, or placing blame, I understand it's WIP.
But it's been like 2 years or something now, and now you are throwing more weapons into the mix, which only makes things harder.

I mean, good luck, that's all I'm saying.  I'm backing you guys up 100% I just don't want to see you fuck up.  Fonline AOP might be your baby but it's our.... Cousine?  Nephew? Wife?  I dunno.

[cirn0]

For what its worth, the only reason it isn't removed in the current game is that it would make the server unstartable because someones has a weapon that doesn't exist anymore in a box.

[Niamak]

Let's be honest, tech progression is imbalanced by design. Each faction will have different tech level, the faction with higher tech level will have access to better weapons. The goal of tech progression is probably to add a dynamic in the power struggle between factions (not just player number and player "skill") or create a snowball effect so season can end eventually.

[John Porno]

I don't play as much as people who play every day, so I can't complain about balance?  John, slap yourself in the face, that is really just stupid logic.

The big majority of balance complaints on aop were, and still mostly are, due to misunderstanding of game mechanics. If one take a melee weapon and complains it has no range then that's not an inherent design flaw or shitty balance, it's people being ignorant and crying about how some elses game is not the exact way they want to have it for themselves. Same thing with complaints about snipers having to much range and too little damage in close range and how melees are OP in buildings and how machineguns lacks singletarget damage. All those complaints happened and with the influx of more new players it will even get worse next season.

What I really was concered with though was your thought process, trying to form an opinion from a pretty much nonexisting basis of information, made up for by your limited game experience, leading to bullshit complaints.

See, what really bugs me is you literally said that a tec progression where 9mm pistol is tier 1 and deagle is tier 8, would AUTOMATICALLY lead to every bit of balance and one of the main merits of this game going out the window and how we just do fo2 stuff and how we're letting everyone and ourselves down and taking every strategy out of the game because 9mm pistol is tier 1 and deagle is tier 8. This is very literally your argument. Because this weapon is tier 1 and another weapon is tier 8, game = suck. Can you see how retarded this argument is? If you had at least put any effort into it then maybe I wouldnt have replied with the same vibes I got from your post.

Your lack of abstraction also shows in your following post where you take the 2 examples of GE and "RF" (which doesnt exist, cause it's just an exmple) but then talk about them as if they were actual things and there would be nothing else and the example that cirn used to describe the CONCEPT is of course the actual IMPLEMENTATION OF CONCEPT.

See, the reason im typing all this is so that you maybe go back and look at the way your argue on forums. Of course the easy way is to say "ahah lok at john raging agen" and discard like that to continue your shitposting. This post is not targetted at you as a human being, but as you as a guy that makes shitty arguments.

[faopcurious]

Yeah but my statement still pretty much stands, if combat shotgun, and pancor aren't balanced NOW, (just one example) adding weapons and tiers won't make things any easier for you guys.  Nothing you said discards this fact.  And I don't have a misunderstanding of game mechanics, I realize melee is 'OP' in close quarters, and snipers are long range, shotguns have a certain utility, etc etc etc, that part is obvious.  You act like things are perfectly balanced now, and I'm an inexperienced noob for thinking otherwise.  They are not balanced. 

 Yes, before I was making a judgement that it would turn into fonline 2. I realize that is not the case, I was foolish for jumping to conclusions.  But as I said before, tier 5 weapons all have to be balanced with other tier 5 weapons, etc etc.  Now you have to admit the game is not perfectly balanced   And we can all move on.

[John Porno]

I think you again failed to realize that the examples I used were in fact examples. Also, having played a fair amount the past weeks, I can indeed say that game is pretty well balanced right now.

If you took a computer and let it compute the optimal way to use every weapon in order to come up with the theoretical best balance, youre still miles away from what the players are actual using. If you as a player make a decision on what kind of weapons you want to take, then you have to do it in accordance with the current meta, which is entirely formed by the players and not the game itself. If you want, meta is a social construct while "balance" is the pure math behind it. You can have enjoyable meta with a fucked balance as well as a nice balance with a fucked balance, in both cases the players understanding of the game as well as social and psychological factors play a role. A bigger role than the math, I'd say.

A good example for that, which im sure you have witnessed, was the fact that a lot of people took the PKS when I changed it recently, and I got a couple of people telling me they really liked the changes (which is rare). The funny part is just that even though I stated in the changelog that m240 would be better for single target burst damage, people still used PKS over it, even though all applications were in fact single target burst damage.

My point here is that you still fail to see the big picture of it. Surely if weapon X is better on paper than weapon Y then that means bad game, right? Well, I think the last 2 years have proven that it's not that simple. There have been countless examples of weapons not changing at all stats-wise while the meta had radical changes in the same time period.

So basically, if the current balance is as shit as you claim, then feel free to give us a couple of examples. I'm sure for most of the examples you could give, other players could already tell you what you could have done differently.

If anything, what you could argue about is not balance itself, but the complexity of the game coupled with bad explanation of its mechanics. This again is a whole different debate and I dont want to get into it now but just to close my point now, my last point also still stands: It seems you have a hard time when it comes to logical thinking. If every single aspect of a game is changed during a wipe, then what effect would the balance of current pancor and CSG have? Your arguments just simply don't work man. I guess what you would try to say is that your perceived, theoretical imbalance of CSG and pancor (I've never seen any of the regular pvp player use CSG in, like, ever) would be proof that I as a dev am incapable of balancing and that this capability wouldnt change after wipe, which is a logical conclusion I guess. But what if I have the perfect balance all laid out in my trusty weapons_phx.fopro that I just havent committed yet? Maybe theres a whole set of next season weapons which are all perfectly balanced? (There is not) Point again is, your argument is a real stretch and doesn't really hold up.

It would have been fine if you worded it differently, like "Judging by the way I see current balance, I guess we can expect the same kind of shit next season" which would have been fair deal cause you then make clear what your opinion is and how it is formed and what you speculate, instead of trying to pass it off as fact.