FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix

General section => General Discussions => Topic started by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 03:31:50 AM

Title: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 03:31:50 AM
So where, and when do we find out about how the new weapon tier system is going to work?  After the wipe?
Now?

Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: powerplay on April 12, 2016, 05:15:22 AM
http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2878.0 (http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2878.0)
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 10:46:47 AM
That doesn't explain anything though.  Does a weapon have a tech level, 9mm pistol: tier 1, or does having tier 5 technology mean my 9mm pistol will have tier 5 perks/traits ?

if I understand "progressive list of items per sub-genre. "   9mm pistol would be tier 1 or so, Deag would be tier 8, etc etc.

Which means you completely gave up on balance, one of the first things you promised us back in the day was ''balanced weapons'' one of the main attracting points of Fonline AOP.  And you decided to do this Fonline 2 weapon tier shit.  Way to completely give up on balance.  Thanks for letting yourselves down, and letting us down. -_-.   Way to take any strategy out of the game, now instead of deciding what weapon to use I guess I'll just use the highest tier I find.  Because screw balance right?  Lets just copy Fonline 2.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Count Matthew on April 12, 2016, 10:52:11 AM
I believe the tiers to be staggered.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 10:58:03 AM
Not to mention its going to be spam fest when everyone is trying to kill each other with zip guns in ZC.
"We can add interesting modifiers:
Controlling Research facility in WM location increases faction research cap by 10%.
Controlling Global Electrics in Core increases faction research cap by 10%.
"
Oh, well I hope everyone likes fighting in GE, and RF for the rest of the season. * yawwwwn*
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Stem Sunders on April 12, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
When were you even last in Phoenix? When did you last ZC? When was the last time you tried out any mechanics? Things are changing all the time.

Sorry but, seems very narrow minded.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Niamak on April 12, 2016, 11:08:44 AM
A lot more guns will be added to the game. So, it will probably not be a spam fest.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on April 12, 2016, 11:12:06 AM
Sorry but, seems very narrow minded.
^

I'm pretty sure I saw him with his grenadier and CLC...died very easily  :D

You do know like 30+ new guns will be added right? Mainly from WWI/WWII era which will be the low tier weapons making current tier 1-2 weapons tier 6-9.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 11:16:50 AM
Sorry but, seems very narrow minded.
^

I'm pretty sure I saw him with his grenadier and CLC...died very easily  :D

You do know like 30+ new guns will be added right? Mainly from WWI/WWII era which will be the low tier weapons making current tier 1-2 weapons tier 6-9.

Shhhhhhh, don't blow my cover, also answer my PM, it's rude to ignore people.  and congrats, you killed my experimental nader XD.

Narrow minded?  Because I think linear tiers is shit compared to a balanced system?  Because the devs gave up on a promise of balanced weapons?
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 11:17:58 AM
A lot more guns will be added to the game. So, it will probably not be a spam fest.
I didn't mean spam fest as everyone using the same gun, I meant spam fest as in you will need to shoot some one 20 times to kill them!
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Stem Sunders on April 12, 2016, 11:29:54 AM
Yeah, mhm.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Niamak on April 12, 2016, 11:33:37 AM
I think you are right, low tier weapons will probably require very long time to kill (shoot 20 times). New armor tier will be added also, it's hard to say.

I always hated very low time to kill gameplay anyway (like 1hexing and particle accelerator). So, I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Kurwier on April 12, 2016, 11:54:11 AM
well i can undertsand faopcurious and im with him since i never liked any tiersystem and fonline2 is a primeexample of why it is bad ...

it will be probably easier to fist someone with barehands then to shoot someone with a 10mm pistol with 5 hex radius ...
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 12:05:38 PM
Yeah, mhm.

Then maybe you are the close minded one?  how could tiers possibly be better than balanced gameplay?
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 12:06:40 PM
well i can undertsand faopcurious and im with him since i never liked any tiersystem and fonline2 is a primeexample of why it is bad ...

it will be probably easier to fist someone with barehands then to shoot someone with a 10mm pistol with 5 hex radius ...

Exactly, I think I will roll a martial artist on wipe XD.  Get a whole group of guys running around in robes beating people up with their bare hands, smacking guns out of peoples hands.   We can be the monks of peace or something XD.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 12, 2016, 12:11:25 PM
I think the term "narrowminded" fits calling bullshit on something one apparently has no idea about really well.

There is a tectree in the art section which clearly shows the main weapon classes and the fact that each class has at least one full tree with no gaps. We're not trying to force the fallout guns into a tec progression as fo2 did, because that leads to a severe imbalance each time you add a new weapon in class x without also adding something to class y, and we're also progressively fade the weapons in and out. There wont be a switch flipped overnight which suddenly makes all old weapons obsolete, but rather their spawn weight is increased as described above.

Also, balance is a lie. You even used the term balance wrong. Maybe "levelled" would be better or something, in a literal sense.

I know that we havent laid out the full concept yet and only posted some bits here and there, but at least argue properly and dont talk shit.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 12:15:55 PM
You care to link to that tec tree in the art section?  Couldn't find it.
Also, I think you meant close minded, not narrow minded.

Also, if you guys couldn't balance the weapons what makes you think you can do it with tiers? Thats just going to make any balance you do for each tier even more difficult.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Kurwier on April 12, 2016, 12:22:07 PM
You care to link to that tec tree in the art section?  Couldn't find it.
Also, I think you meant close minded, not narrow minded.

Also, if you guys couldn't balance the weapons what makes you think you can do it with tiers? Thats just going to make any balance you do for each tier even more difficult.

i think he meant this one here http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2975.0 hk caws above pangor lelhammer xD and rip to steyr aug
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 12, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
You care to link to that tec tree in the art section?  Couldn't find it.
Also, I think you meant close minded, not narrow minded.

Also, if you guys couldn't balance the weapons what makes you think you can do it with tiers? Thats just going to make any balance you do for each tier even more difficult.
please elaborate more on how bad the balance was this season.
Also, narrowminded was a quote. You're also now using the term balance differently than before
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Stem Sunders on April 12, 2016, 01:12:28 PM
I said narrow minded. Not close minded.

I never said one way was better than the other, you did.

Much of the information you're asking about is already out there.

Including your previous topic on this. http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=3137.msg27829#msg27829
There are huge discussions on all kinds of things set for next season.
You would just rather ask the same questions again without doing any of the leg work. C'mon man.
Other things, well just wait and see?


You make statements like "Not to mention its going to be spam fest when everyone is trying to kill each other with zip guns in ZC." - Who is taking a zip gun to ZC seriously?

Also answer my questions, "its rude to ignore people."
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 12, 2016, 01:34:12 PM
We've only recently cemented the roles of each weapon groups, which actually makes balancing much easier when we have a clear role / motif for each weapon type. I feel there isn't that big of a balance issue left in current season but there is room for improvements always. If you feel there is an issue of course always voice your concerns. Best if you have a well thought out arguments about specific things that you feel should be reviewed.   

Regarding failures, lowering expectations and generally shit deving. Sometimes we see its shit, and know its shit, but we implement it anyways just to see how it looks on the walls. But most of the times its just me being retarded.

So I'm not saying we're the best, but
benis benis benis.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 02:03:39 PM




You make statements like "Not to mention its going to be spam fest when everyone is trying to kill each other with zip guns in ZC." - Who is taking a zip gun to ZC seriously?

Also answer my questions, "its rude to ignore people."

What was your question? Who taking zip gun to ZC?  That was just an example of using tier 1 weapons because that is what everyone will be using, tier 1s.

Edit:  You mean when was the last time I played?  didn't you see Stalkers reply?  He just killed me the other day, I thought Stalker answered the question for me ;)
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 02:06:45 PM
You care to link to that tec tree in the art section?  Couldn't find it.
Also, I think you meant close minded, not narrow minded.

Also, if you guys couldn't balance the weapons what makes you think you can do it with tiers? Thats just going to make any balance you do for each tier even more difficult.
please elaborate more on how bad the balance was this season.
Also, narrowminded was a quote. You're also now using the term balance differently than before

I'm using the term balance differently because you informed me that something can be tiered, AND balanced but still have levels. But my argument is, tier 5's still have to be as good as other tier 5's, etc, etc.

Seriously? Like pick a random gun, it is probably under powered or over powered.  Every time I try to use a weapon apparently it's the ''wrong'' one to use, and I should use ____ instead.

A lot of pistols are still kind of pathetic, some rifles, and assault rifles are better than others.  And pancor is still best shotgun, no real need to use the other ones, at least last time I checked which was a few months or so ago.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Stem Sunders on April 12, 2016, 02:15:55 PM
Three questions, first post I made. Yes I read stalkers post, but who knows when you can take that guy seriously.

Also, please. Edit your posts and stop doubling up.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
Three questions, first post I made. Yes I read stalkers post, but who knows when you can take that guy seriously.

Also, please. Edit your posts and stop doubling up.

1, and 2 are kind of the same question, what else would I be doing? Of course in ZC.
3:  When did I ''try out mechanics."  ?  Like testing weapons? Just the other day.

And I'll double post if I want :P  2 different people, 2 different posts.   Easier to read that way.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 12, 2016, 02:19:38 PM
>few months ago

Ok we all know you didnt nearly play as much as a lot of other aop'ers and the fact you are being told you keep using the wrong weapons kinda makes me think that maybe you wouldnt be in a position to complain about bad balance. Especially not about a not yet existing balance which would be bad in the future.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 12, 2016, 02:49:41 PM
I've explained it before but its buried somewhere, even took me a while to dig it up wew.

http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=2645.msg22277#msg22277
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 05:43:06 PM
>few months ago

Ok we all know you didnt nearly play as much as a lot of other aop'ers and the fact you are being told you keep using the wrong weapons kinda makes me think that maybe you wouldnt be in a position to complain about bad balance. Especially not about a not yet existing balance which would be bad in the future.

lol, what?  I played recently, I just mean a few months ago with the shotguns because I haven't been using them.
Anyone who plays is in a position to complain about balance, it effects me as much as it does the next guy :P
I don't play as much as people who play every day, so I can't complain about balance?  John, slap yourself in the face, that is really just stupid logic.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 12, 2016, 06:32:04 PM
You should backup your claims and opinions with facts or at the least anecdotes so we can see where you are coming from because we don't have the clear picture what it is in your perspective the problem.

For the regular players can they can discuss a topic and we see where they are coming from because we have already established an ongoing continuity of "what the fuck is going on" and concluded "shit is fucked!".

The same process we're trying to do right now with you.

So basically, what exactly specifically absolutely do think is the balancing problems?

Saying take a gun any gun doesn't help narrow it down. Take a pistol any pistol is still too broad. If you haven't read the above link I posted, please do so we can be on the same page.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 10:32:47 PM
Just a quick test, and I can see Pancor is better than Combat Shotgun in almost every way.
They are too similar, so the Combat Shotgun has no tactical advantage, just all around not as good of a gun.
The single shot of the CSG has slightly less ap, which is trivial at best compared to what the Pancor does.
More damage + double tap, and the damage adds up, way less shots to kill.   I think the Combat Shotgun could benefit from less damage, but give it limb shredder, or better knock outs, or something tactical.  Alternatively one might make the Pancor do more damage, but jam up more, and break faster.  Or, make Pancor full damage dealer, and give Combat Shotty all of the knock down perks, or some combination thereof.  I dunno.

We all knew the game was not balanced, I don't know why no one is backing me up on this, but no one is trying to point a finger.  We know this is a work in progress, I just don't see how adding more weapons, and tiers is going to make it easier to balance things, it's only going to make it harder for you.  You say it would be easier, but I don't think so.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 12, 2016, 10:38:50 PM
You aren't reading the link I linked :(
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 12, 2016, 10:40:58 PM
You aren't reading the link I linked :(

ok, I'll read it again ;)

Edit:  I read it again.... what did I miss?   Howcome we aren't seeing eye to eye here?

Edit:  You mean the part about just changing the stats to balance things? I totally get that, but right now even if you just look at the numbers, pancor beats CSG. 
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Kurwier on April 12, 2016, 11:15:56 PM
You aren't reading the link I linked :(

ok, I'll read it again ;)

Edit:  I read it again.... what did I miss?   Howcome we aren't seeing eye to eye here?

well i got your point fao and i must say im on your side when it comes down to tectrees and stuff but i can also see what cirno is meaning , literary u get way less weapons within its tier range and if u make all tiers kinda same then u get some better overlook hehe ...

on the other hand i dont know why somebody wud implement tiers which are all the same and just doing different dmg weeh ...

im on your side fao man im on your side , but it is what it is and we have to see how zipgun battles turn out ... isnt it amazing :D

i tried to look on lootables and how they working and i gave up , cirn left me alone in the deepest darkness of lidae code :'(
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 12, 2016, 11:49:25 PM
Quote
So for argument sake, we'll address them as the "Meta" tier of each subclasses I don't believe it is necessary to keep multiple weapons of the same subclass at the "Meta" level. 

So for the time being, I'm just asking you to be patient and instead of addressing specific weapons, address a specific subclass. That to us is much more critical as we move ahead. I want each subclass of weapons to be unique to another and most importantly fun, thus it is important we don't homogenize them.

So what we look at isn't Pancor VS CSG, but at shotgun vs whatever as a whole. We have one or two weapons to represent that whole subgroup and if we can get enough imagimotivation we'll add sidegrade weapons into the subgroup. So in this regard, we kind of feel the balance between  the subgroups is 3/4 pgud.

We ain't trying to doing linear improvements with our tier system. We kinda model the tiers simulate warfare of specific eras such as civil war, wildwest, ww1, ww2, vietnam to whatever we got now. A "lets have a little bit of fun before the srs kill each faction off for good" phase of the game.

Ultimately, this arena team deathmatch gameplay isn't what AoP is about but I certainly understand how people can really enjoy it.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 13, 2016, 12:50:23 AM
Quote
So for argument sake, we'll address them as the "Meta" tier of each subclasses I don't believe it is necessary to keep multiple weapons of the same subclass at the "Meta" level. 

So for the time being, I'm just asking you to be patient and instead of addressing specific weapons, address a specific subclass. That to us is much more critical as we move ahead. I want each subclass of weapons to be unique to another and most importantly fun, thus it is important we don't homogenize them.

So what we look at isn't Pancor VS CSG, but at shotgun vs whatever as a whole. We have one or two weapons to represent that whole subgroup and if we can get enough imagimotivation we'll add sidegrade weapons into the subgroup. So in this regard, we kind of feel the balance between  the subgroups is 3/4 pgud.

We ain't trying to doing linear improvements with our tier system. We kinda model the tiers simulate warfare of specific eras such as civil war, wildwest, ww1, ww2, vietnam to whatever we got now. A "lets have a little bit of fun before the srs kill each faction off for good" phase of the game.

Ultimately, this arena team deathmatch gameplay isn't what AoP is about but I certainly understand how people can really enjoy it.

Right, so in other words you will fix it later?  It's a WIP,  in the meantime I'm an asshole to my faction if I use Combat Shotgun instead of Pancor ( or the best weapon of a subgroup).  But like I said, not pointing fingers, or placing blame, I understand it's WIP.
But it's been like 2 years or something now, and now you are throwing more weapons into the mix, which only makes things harder.

I mean, good luck, that's all I'm saying.  I'm backing you guys up 100% I just don't want to see you fuck up.  Fonline AOP might be your baby but it's our.... Cousine?  Nephew? Wife?  I dunno.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 13, 2016, 01:07:32 AM
For what its worth, the only reason it isn't removed in the current game is that it would make the server unstartable because someones has a weapon that doesn't exist anymore in a box.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Niamak on April 13, 2016, 03:54:41 AM
Let's be honest, tech progression is imbalanced by design. Each faction will have different tech level, the faction with higher tech level will have access to better weapons. The goal of tech progression is probably to add a dynamic in the power struggle between factions (not just player number and player "skill") or create a snowball effect so season can end eventually.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 13, 2016, 04:33:34 AM
I don't play as much as people who play every day, so I can't complain about balance?  John, slap yourself in the face, that is really just stupid logic.
The big majority of balance complaints on aop were, and still mostly are, due to misunderstanding of game mechanics. If one take a melee weapon and complains it has no range then that's not an inherent design flaw or shitty balance, it's people being ignorant and crying about how some elses game is not the exact way they want to have it for themselves. Same thing with complaints about snipers having to much range and too little damage in close range and how melees are OP in buildings and how machineguns lacks singletarget damage. All those complaints happened and with the influx of more new players it will even get worse next season.

What I really was concered with though was your thought process, trying to form an opinion from a pretty much nonexisting basis of information, made up for by your limited game experience, leading to bullshit complaints.

See, what really bugs me is you literally said that a tec progression where 9mm pistol is tier 1 and deagle is tier 8, would AUTOMATICALLY lead to every bit of balance and one of the main merits of this game going out the window and how we just do fo2 stuff and how we're letting everyone and ourselves down and taking every strategy out of the game because 9mm pistol is tier 1 and deagle is tier 8. This is very literally your argument. Because this weapon is tier 1 and another weapon is tier 8, game = suck. Can you see how retarded this argument is? If you had at least put any effort into it then maybe I wouldnt have replied with the same vibes I got from your post.

Your lack of abstraction also shows in your following post where you take the 2 examples of GE and "RF" (which doesnt exist, cause it's just an exmple) but then talk about them as if they were actual things and there would be nothing else and the example that cirn used to describe the CONCEPT is of course the actual IMPLEMENTATION OF CONCEPT.

See, the reason im typing all this is so that you maybe go back and look at the way your argue on forums. Of course the easy way is to say "ahah lok at john raging agen" and discard like that to continue your shitposting. This post is not targetted at you as a human being, but as you as a guy that makes shitty arguments.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 13, 2016, 01:59:59 PM
Yeah but my statement still pretty much stands, if combat shotgun, and pancor aren't balanced NOW, (just one example) adding weapons and tiers won't make things any easier for you guys.  Nothing you said discards this fact.  And I don't have a misunderstanding of game mechanics, I realize melee is 'OP' in close quarters, and snipers are long range, shotguns have a certain utility, etc etc etc, that part is obvious.  You act like things are perfectly balanced now, and I'm an inexperienced noob for thinking otherwise.  They are not balanced. 

 Yes, before I was making a judgement that it would turn into fonline 2. I realize that is not the case, I was foolish for jumping to conclusions.  But as I said before, tier 5 weapons all have to be balanced with other tier 5 weapons, etc etc.  Now you have to admit the game is not perfectly balanced :P  And we can all move on.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 13, 2016, 03:07:46 PM
I think you again failed to realize that the examples I used were in fact examples. Also, having played a fair amount the past weeks, I can indeed say that game is pretty well balanced right now.

If you took a computer and let it compute the optimal way to use every weapon in order to come up with the theoretical best balance, youre still miles away from what the players are actual using. If you as a player make a decision on what kind of weapons you want to take, then you have to do it in accordance with the current meta, which is entirely formed by the players and not the game itself. If you want, meta is a social construct while "balance" is the pure math behind it. You can have enjoyable meta with a fucked balance as well as a nice balance with a fucked balance, in both cases the players understanding of the game as well as social and psychological factors play a role. A bigger role than the math, I'd say.

A good example for that, which im sure you have witnessed, was the fact that a lot of people took the PKS when I changed it recently, and I got a couple of people telling me they really liked the changes (which is rare). The funny part is just that even though I stated in the changelog that m240 would be better for single target burst damage, people still used PKS over it, even though all applications were in fact single target burst damage.

My point here is that you still fail to see the big picture of it. Surely if weapon X is better on paper than weapon Y then that means bad game, right? Well, I think the last 2 years have proven that it's not that simple. There have been countless examples of weapons not changing at all stats-wise while the meta had radical changes in the same time period.

So basically, if the current balance is as shit as you claim, then feel free to give us a couple of examples. I'm sure for most of the examples you could give, other players could already tell you what you could have done differently.

If anything, what you could argue about is not balance itself, but the complexity of the game coupled with bad explanation of its mechanics. This again is a whole different debate and I dont want to get into it now but just to close my point now, my last point also still stands: It seems you have a hard time when it comes to logical thinking. If every single aspect of a game is changed during a wipe, then what effect would the balance of current pancor and CSG have? Your arguments just simply don't work man. I guess what you would try to say is that your perceived, theoretical imbalance of CSG and pancor (I've never seen any of the regular pvp player use CSG in, like, ever) would be proof that I as a dev am incapable of balancing and that this capability wouldnt change after wipe, which is a logical conclusion I guess. But what if I have the perfect balance all laid out in my trusty weapons_phx.fopro that I just havent committed yet? Maybe theres a whole set of next season weapons which are all perfectly balanced? (There is not) Point again is, your argument is a real stretch and doesn't really hold up.

It would have been fine if you worded it differently, like "Judging by the way I see current balance, I guess we can expect the same kind of shit next season" which would have been fair deal cause you then make clear what your opinion is and how it is formed and what you speculate, instead of trying to pass it off as fact.

Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 13, 2016, 06:33:11 PM
Well I tested pancor, and CSG on shooting range against armored targets, it was no contest.  I don't know what else to say.  But I think some one doesn't want to cope with the truth that the game is not balanced. Denial is bad.  Haven't noticed anyone using CSG now that you mention it, is anyone else using this gun?  Is there a reason you are using it instead of pancor?
Also, if what I said before about people telling me to use weapon A, and not weapon B, how is THAT not proof?  I mean if it's proof you want surely we can do something about that.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Mad Matt on April 13, 2016, 06:46:28 PM
Maybe my question isn't directly about weapon tier system...but, are we gonna see some changes/new types in ammo? I mean more types in example for shotguns, rocket launchers, etc? For example EMP ammo, magnesium pellets etc?

And back in subject, I think that AoP has few "special" weapons used more and a little bit more powerful than other guns, but...it's still far more than 2-3 PvP guns on other servers. I think this tiering from 1 to 10 will be great idea and if it's gonna be implemented properly it will only be better. Maybe one day all weapons will be lethal for wastelanders?
And if you would ask me for game with great variety of guns I would bet on AoP.

Good job devs, btw I saw zip folder with some of new guns...well, I think I know what I'll be doing with my life after wipe.

I like guns and I can not lie  8)
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 13, 2016, 07:06:39 PM
What are you referring to exactly? And why do you make it sound like im using CSG? I never used it, just like I've never seen anyone using it.

Bottom line is though that it's about a game and about fun. The important thing for me is that the game works, and pvp does work very well. Even if you could prove to me that there are grave discrepancies in the weapon balance, and I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case, then you would still have to explain why nobody seems to be exploiting these. As long as I don't see anything like that happening, I'm good. Back on 2238 there were strict rules in some gangs about NOT doing any energy build period. Now on aop, you can make every weapon class work.

Another thing is that the philosophy also changed, as cirn pointed out earlier. For over a year now or evne longer, I have completely ignored most weapons and the only goal was to have one well functioning weapon representative of each class, and I think there's no denying that that's the case right now.

Also, you keep just stating opinions and making bad arguments while accusing me of denial, clever move. Still waiting for that proof that balance is bad. Maybe before that, what do you define as a "bad balance"? It seems we've got a different definition here. Thing is though that I as a game designer set the bar. If you measure my work by your standards, then it really just boils down to taste, which is subjective and doesn't matter in such a discussion, as in, if you want a racing game you cant criticize the call of duty devs for making a shooter. You could only criticize them for making bad shooters. If you really want to criticize me or the game, then do it by pointing out where the game failed to deliver on its promises. And I think that's exactly the point. If you have different expectations of the game, then not meeting those expectations is also not an issue of the game.

But in any case, if the balance is so bad, then surely you can point out in what exact way it is affecting your gameplay experience negatively. Is it that youre being forced to run the same OP builds, to be forced to use the same OP weapons? Is it that the enemies keep winning or that there's too little or too much skill involved?

I mean if you try to make the point that CSG > Pancor and thus balance is bad, but at the same time ther eis no CSG to be seen, how would that affect your experience negatively? Wouldnt you rejoice for being the only guy to have found the holy grail of shotguns, ready and able to abuse it?

Anyway, I guess bottom line you just thought that every weapon that's called "tier2" is as good as any other tier 2 weapon, which, I admit, was a design goal in 2014, but that has changed because we realized that it wasn't the best concept. If you wonder why all those weapons werent taken out of the game then that's a different thing, which cirn partly answered. There was no need to put effort into removing any of that, after all, the players would figure out the way to go.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 13, 2016, 07:43:28 PM
What are you referring to exactly? And why do you make it sound like im using CSG? I never used it, just like I've never seen anyone using it.



No wonder you are arguing with me, you are misunderstanding everything I am saying.  I said is anyone using it, meaning other players on the forum. IF SO, why do you ( the player) use it, that's what I was trying to say.
But that explains things, if you never used CSG that might explain why you don't know that it's not as good as pancor XD.   AND if you have never seen anyone use it why are you arguing ? lol.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: cirn0 on April 13, 2016, 07:47:54 PM
Preserve the richness of this exchange!
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 13, 2016, 07:55:21 PM
Nevermind man, just get back to work.  I'd hate to think I'm slowing Johns progress on the game or something, I don't want the launch to be delayed, and have it be my fault somehow xD.  New season of AOP is going to be what it is.  Will just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Kurwier on April 13, 2016, 08:03:10 PM
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1EzzUc0sp3f
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: John Porno on April 13, 2016, 08:15:02 PM
oh yeah, I somehow mixed it up and thought you were saying combat shotgun was better than pancor. My point still stands though, doesnt really matter for the sake of argument which one is better.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Komrade on April 14, 2016, 12:56:03 AM
Preserve the richness of this exchange!

This exchange will be preserved safely in the grand history logs of AoP.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Teela on April 14, 2016, 04:03:24 AM
Shotgun balance in AOP is absolutely perfect. HK caws for single shot slugs. Pancor for green burst at close range. Since pancor isn't craftable you may not always have one at your disposal. In which case you take a CSG, which does a bit less damage but fulfills the same role. Remember that having 50 pancors in your shotgun locker is an end of season luxury.
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: Kurwier on April 14, 2016, 07:18:09 AM
Shotgun balance in AOP is absolutely perfect. HK caws for single shot slugs. Pancor for green burst at close range. Since pancor isn't craftable you may not always have one at your disposal. In which case you take a CSG, which does a bit less damage but fulfills the same role. Remember that having 50 pancors in your shotgun locker is an end of season luxury.

better remember that pangor doesnt deal that much dmg anymore with bursts i havent seen anyone serious burst with it for a longtime , becoz u can do more dmg with a single slugshot lel
Title: Re: New weapon tier system.?
Post by: faopcurious on April 14, 2016, 09:14:39 PM
Since pancor isn't craftable you may not always have one at your disposal. In which case you take a CSG, which does a bit less damage but fulfills the same role. Remember that having 50 pancors in your shotgun locker is an end of season luxury.

Something to consider I guess.