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Author Topic: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]  (Read 26189 times)

John Porno

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2014, 11:30:14 AM »

I've been following the german and russian mainstream media as well as german alternative media ever since the whole crimea thing started, and the picture I get is this:

1: It's a fact that the Obama administration has used the cia and many ngo's to fund or otherwise support the maidan protests. It's been proven that the massacre on maidan was not done on order of Janukovitch but instead carried out by mercenaries, previously trained on polish grounds by american officials.

2: Criminal oligarchs like kolomoisky are actively being supported, people like jazenjuk were carefully chosen as marionettes to prepare the country to be robbed more easily by the banks, the imf and the world bank.

3: The right sector and swoboda are overrepresented, having 4 ministers as well as the general attourney while only having about 1% of the people's support in the elections.

So much about the revolution, now about the war.

The last numbers I heard about 2 weeks go from probably the one and only german journalist reporting from inside the donbass (Mark Bartalmai) over 30.000 regular ukrainian troops died, with over 3.500 civilians dead in the eastern region. His resumee was that the poorly trained and under-equipped soldiers, who were forced into the war by threatening them with 8 years of prison if they didn't go, are losing their lives very fast while international (blackwater) as well as local mercenary bands (kolomoisky's private army) are terrorizing the people on the kiev controlled lands.

Mark Bartalmai has filmed the above mentioned attack on the school and has also filmed mass graves with hundreds of bodies of males, females and children, not in uniform, with bound hands and signs of torture. On Kiev controlled territory.

While nothing can be ruled out completely, he has not witnessed any accounts of weapons being smuggled through the russian border. However, he has been filming separatist troops, driving away kiev forces, leaving behind positions with incredible amounts of gear and ammo. He has also filmed buk and grad systems, abandonded by kiev forces and captured by separatists, meaning that they dont even need russian gear.

On the other hand, the claims that russia is supporting the separatists can't be denied either. From a german former journalist and government consultant, I've heard that the russian military is basically granting leave to personell who wants to cross the border and help the separatists while they could of course just prevent that. The "joke" about russian soldiers taking a vacation trip to ukraine actually seems to be true, but the point is that it's not "endorsed" by officials at all.

About the crimea secession:
While the mainstream media keeps saying that russia "annexed" crimea and that it infringed international law, there are also experts and professors that argue against it, declaring it a "secession" which was completely legitimate and in accordance with the law of nations. All the military personell that was present on crimea was allowed to be there since russia had treaties with ukraine, allowing like 10.000 or 20.000 soldiers to be stationed there to guard sevastopol. Not a single shot was fired and there are reports of OSCE election observers not finding anythign wrong with how the election went down.

About MH17
I dont want to dive into conspiracy theories here, but both Mark Bartalmai as well as OSCE officials stated repeatedly that they were freely able to enter and check out the crash site while at the same time, no official from the netherlands or malaysia was to be found. There have been reports,not just from mark bartalmai, that a lot of osce missions as well as aid convoys and journalists are being fired at while still on kiev controlled territory. When the news say it is not safe enough to send anything in it sounds like the separatists are shooting them but it's actually the other way around. Bartalmai has lost 3 members of his team of 10 while escorting such a human aid transport throughout western ukraine.

I can give sources for what I've said here, though most of it would be in german.
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vodka

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2014, 09:23:40 AM »

Looks like you watch absolutely prorussian "alternative" german media.
Check ViceNews. At least its impartial
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7DfgzuUCd_PVwbOCDO472B
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dillinger

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2014, 01:40:40 PM »

Looks like you watch absolutely prorussian "alternative" german media.
Check ViceNews. At least its impartial
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7DfgzuUCd_PVwbOCDO472B

LOLNews
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Deathproof

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2014, 07:32:07 AM »

Basically, Yugoslavia all over again. Nice destabilization from westerns. Brainwashed youth, people dying for nothing. And in the end will come hate,regret and rebuilding.

Shame.....seems war,war never changes will never stop being relevant.
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Myakot

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2014, 07:56:10 AM »

Basically, Yugoslavia all over again. Nice destabilization from westerns. Brainwashed youth, people dying for nothing. And in the end will come hate,regret and rebuilding.

Shame.....seems war,war never changes will never stop being relevant.

Just as Wiedzmin's main morale will always stay true. We're all a part of a giant fk-up, so let's enjoy our own lives and ruin everyone else's!
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catstevens

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2014, 10:31:38 PM »

Looks like you watch absolutely prorussian "alternative" german media.
Check ViceNews. At least its impartial
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7DfgzuUCd_PVwbOCDO472B

From their first video description on page of the link you gave:
"Russia has invaded the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine and taken over its civilian and military infrastructure. VICE News is on the ground covering the conflict as it unfolds."

...

That didn't happen. At all.
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paragon

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2014, 03:56:17 AM »

"Russia has invaded the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine and taken over its civilian and military infrastructure. VICE News is on the ground covering the conflict as it unfolds."

This actually was the first, main and only reason for me to not watch those videos.
Very strict direct declaration with strong words (invaded, taken over). Until they have an undisputed proof on it (and if they do, better to put a link on that proof right next to the declaration), it sounds just like another propaganda.
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vodka

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2014, 11:28:49 AM »

Didnt happen? Really?


Anyway, if you really want find the truth, you should watch at situation from both sides.
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catstevens

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2014, 11:55:01 AM »

Explain how that video shows russia "invading and taking over Crimea's military and civilian infrastructure". (Other than the on screen text that says so). By the way, did you see the turnout and vote percentages? By all accounts it was a fair vote. Crimeans overwhelming wanted to leave Ukraine, and I would too if a foreign-backed, nazi-integrated coup happened in my country.

Yes, you should examine all evidence and make decision for yourself. Here's what we have so far:

- US sponsored coup forms illegitimate new government in Ukraine

- people in east of ukraine don't recognize this violent coup which is integrated with neo-nazi groups

- new government and neo-nazi brigade begin shelling towns, murdering dissidents including a massacre is Odessa where people were chased into a building which was then set on fire so they could burn alive. Those who left the building were shot at.

- New government continues doing things 100x worse than old, deposed government ever did.

- Western leaders immediately recognize this unelected, violent criminal regime as the "sole legitimate representative of the Ukrainian people" (just like they did with the fundamentalist mobs that took over libya, which btw continues to be a hell on earth plunged into pure chaos, and the military weapon stores there were shipped to "rebels" in syria (now rebraned as 'isis' - great hollywood name - to try more destablization and regime change)

- After all this, news media calls it "russian aggression" and says "russia has invaded"

You idiot. Do you have any idea what an actual Russian invasion of Ukraine would look like? Do you even know what the word invasion means?

You ask the average idiot on the street whats happening and what will they say " Ukraine is in war with russia" . Thanks to dumb propaganda like VICE news pretending to be anything but mouthpiece of the power elite and war drummers.

edit: here, for your reading
Spoiler for Hiden:
How Can You Tell Whether Russia has Invaded Ukraine?

By Dmitry Orlov
September 01, 2014 "ICH" -  Last Thursday the Ukrainian government, echoed by NATO spokesmen, declared that the the Russian military is now operating within Ukraine's borders. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't; what do you know? They said the same thing before, most recently on August 13, and then on August 17, each time with either no evidence or fake evidence. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

You be the judge. I put together this helpful list of top ten telltale signs that will allow you to determine whether indeed Russia invaded Ukraine last Thursday, or whether Thursday's announcement is yet another confabulation. (Credit to Roman Kretsul).

Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.

1. Ukrainian artillery fell silent almost immediately. They are no longer shelling residential districts of Donetsk and Lugansk. This is because their locations had been pinpointed prior to the operation, and by Thursday afternoon they were completely wiped out using air attacks, artillery and ground-based rocket fire, as the first order of business. Local residents are overjoyed that their horrible ordeal is finally at an end.

2. The look of military activity on the ground in Donetsk and Lugansk has changed dramatically. Whereas before it involved small groups of resistance fighters, the Russians operate in battalions of 400 men and dozens of armored vehicles, followed by convoys of support vehicles (tanker trucks, communications, field kitchens, field hospitals and so on). The flow of vehicles in and out is non-stop, plainly visible on air reconnaissance and satellite photos. Add to that the relentless radio chatter, all in Russian, which anyone who wants to can intercept, and the operation becomes impossible to hide.

3. The Ukrainian military has promptly vanished. Soldiers and officers alike have taken off their uniforms, abandoned their weapons, and are doing their best to blend in with the locals. Nobody thought the odds of the Ukrainian army against the Russians were any good. Ukraine's only military victory against Russia was at the battle of Konotop in 1659, but at the time Ukraine was allied with the mighty Khanate of Crimea, and, you may have noticed, Crimea is not on Ukraine's side this time around.

4. There are Russian checkpoints everywhere. Local civilians are allowed through, but anyone associated with a government, foreign or domestic, is detained for questioning. A filtration system has been set up to return demobilized Ukrainian army draftees to their native regions, while the volunteers and the officers are shunted to pretrial detention centers, to determine whether they had ordered war crimes to be committed.

5. Most of Ukraine's border crossings are by now under Russian control. Some have been reinforced with air defense and artillery systems and tank battalions, to dissuade NATO forces from attempting to stage an invasion. Civilians and humanitarian goods are allowed through. Businessmen are allowed through once they fill out the required forms (which are in Russian).

6. Russia has imposed a no-fly zone over all of Ukraine. All civilian flights have been cancelled. There is quite a crowd of US State Department staffers, CIA and Mossad agents, and Western NGO people stuck at Borispol airport in Kiev. Some are nervously calling everyone they know on their satellite phones. Western politicians are demanding that they be evacuated immediately, but Russian authorities want to hold onto them until their possible complicity in war crimes has been determined.

7. The usual Ukrainian talking heads, such as president Poroshenko, PM Yatsenyuk and others, are no longer available to be interviewed by Western media. Nobody quite knows where they are. There are rumors that they have already fled the country. Crowds have stormed their abandoned residences, and were amazed to discover that they were all outfitted with solid gold toilets. Nor are the Ukrainian oligarchs anywhere to be found, except for the warlord Igor Kolomoisky, who was found in his residence, abandoned by his henchmen, dead from a heart attack. (Contributed by the Saker.)

8. Some of the over 800,000 Ukrainian refugees are starting to stream back in from Russia. They were living in tent cities, many of them in the nearby Rostov region, but with the winter coming they are eager to get back home, now that the shelling is over. Along with them, construction crews, cement trucks and flatbeds stacked with pipe, cable and rebar are streaming in, to repair the damage from the shelling.

9. There is all sorts of intense diplomatic and military activity around the world, especially in Europe and the US. Military forces are on highest alert, diplomats are jetting around and holding conferences. President Obama just held a press conference to announce that “We don't have a strategy on Ukraine yet.” His military advisers tell him that his usual strategy of “bomb a little and see what happens” is not likely to be helpful in this instance.

10. Kiev has surrendered. There are Russian tanks on the Maidan Square. Russian infantry is mopping up the remains of Ukraine's National Guard. A curfew has been announced. The operation to take Kiev resembled “Shock and Awe” in Baghdad: a few loud bangs and then a whimper.

Armed with this list, you too should be able to determine whether or not Russia has invaded Ukraine last Thursday.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 12:07:02 PM by catstevens »
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Myakot

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2014, 12:04:20 PM »

I laughed my ass off by watching that vid.
The line: "As you can see they are not responding nor wearing any insignia, but it's pretty clear, that they're Russian".
That... That's just.. sad.

*People are cheering with Russian flags*
"It seems like, people just sensed that the winds have changed".
This video wants me to grab a random video about Islamic terrorists showing millions of dead bodies, and just slap "It's pretty clear, they were terrorists and America stopped their evil-doing" subtitles all over it.

Also what the heck is wrong with it's title o_0:
Russia's Little Green Men Enter Ukraine: Russian Roulette in Ukraine (Dispatch 1)
Little green men? Russian Roulette? What?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 12:13:08 PM by Myakot »
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vodka

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2014, 12:24:15 PM »

- US sponsored
-neo-nazi groups
-neo-nazi brigade begin shelling towns
-You idiot.
Enough. You won.

2 Myakot
Some unknown, heavily armed guys, blocking ukrainian military base, puts forward a proposal to disarm ukrainian soldiers.
This is not invasion, okay. What is this then?
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paragon

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2014, 12:33:08 PM »

So did it happen after population voted on separation, right?
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vodka

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2014, 12:47:33 PM »

Public referendum was once  - 16.03
This video published 03.03

Btw im not dispute that the majority of population happy to join Russia
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Poor Ernie

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2014, 05:50:50 PM »

A civil war? IT HAS TO BE WWIII!

This is ridiculous...
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dillinger

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2014, 12:42:53 PM »

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The Brazilian Slaughter

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2014, 10:23:13 PM »

I'm a nationalistic chauvinist, so which side winning is better for Brazil?
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Myakot

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2014, 11:20:39 PM »

I'm a nationalistic chauvinist, so which side winning is better for Brazil?
Nah, you are a simple human, each and every one of us is like that.
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The Brazilian Slaughter

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2014, 01:26:10 AM »

I'm a nationalistic chauvinist, so which side winning is better for Brazil?
Nah, you are a simple human, each and every one of us is like that.

Well, some of us are racial supremacists/nationalists, others are ideological chauvinists, then there's religious supremacists and these weird people who believe in uniting all the globe under one-world government (thanks but I will pass). But yeah, we're all tribal in all our ways and frankly, that's how I like it.

On the plus side, we're having a election here in Brazil. Current president is pro-eurasian, pro-china and pro-russia and her competitor is more interested in dealing with Europe, USA and liberal south american countries on the pacific coast. So a Aécio Neves win is a (small?) strike against Putin, so if you root against Putin, root against Dilma Rousseff!

Huh, globalized world is sure wacky like that...
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Sharky

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2014, 12:30:43 PM »

and the Russian paratroopers crossed the border on accident?
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Myakot

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Re: Civil war in Ukraine, 1st October, Kievsky District of the Donetsk [NSFW]
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2014, 12:46:34 PM »

and the Russian paratroopers crossed the border on accident?
Which border? That border with the Ukraine where for more than 10 years already there are russia-ukraine military bases? The Soviet ones? OUR border?
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