FOnline: Ashes of Phoenix
Game improvements => Suggestions => Topic started by: SnowCrash on May 10, 2016, 02:39:51 PM
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A lot of discussion has been lately around combat sneak.
I think that one solution will be to give combat sneaker some specific roles where it should perform good (counter specific target, kill enemies on certain conditions), but outside those roles there should be still able to offer support to the team (providing information and weakening enemies).
So the power (damage wise) should be low in most scenearios. But the problem of decreasing strength of combat sneaker is that you dont kill your enemy fast you are mostly dead (like when waki was nerfed and end becoming useless).
Sneak character are most of the time in a bad position because they tend to be near the enemy team, so if they expose to attack or get caught, most of the times is a certain dead, and have almost no chances to get revived or supported by the rest of the team. So only nerfing damage will make combat sneak unplayable.
Better escape mechanism
I think that attack power should be low damage wise but escape mechanism should be stronger. This way combat sneak could be effective to lure, disrupt, and finish weak targets and have increased chances to survive after each assault
Make bloodthirst more reliable
Bloodthirst: increase move speed by 20% after each hit you make, duration will depend on AP used to attack and additional hit will increase duration. During bloodthirst duration you will also have increased resistance to suppression.
So if you hit someone with an 40 AP attack, you will gain bonus speed for 4 secs, after a second, you hit your target again you will get 4 additional seconds, so 7 seconds of speed bonus
Killing a target will increase duration by 5 seconds, to keep its original purpose of escape after killing or try a kill spree.
With current bloodthirst, you are almost forced to kill your target to get the speed bonus to escape, so its all or nothing. With this approach you can stab enemies to lure/weak/debuff them and run to safe again.
Sprinter armor trait
Sprinter is good to hit and run but the problem is that it works better for low AP regeneration players. So rework it to be like the proposed bloodthirst can help solve this issue.
Pick the right target
Sneaks should be good against certain targets under certain scenarios.
Killing a full health target with one AP bar should not be happen unless certain conditions are meet.
So instead of capable to kill any player in 1vs1 confrontation you should pick a target that meet the right conditions to be successful
This can be achieved making weapons perks/traits that offer specific bonus, so sneak weapons can have its base damage reduced but still perform good on certain situations
Additional weapons perks
-Slayer: same mechanism as silent hill dead (damage increase up to 25% on low health targets) so weapons can be balanced to be good on wounded enemies but weak on high health targets
-Eviscerate: Deals bonus damage to bleeding targets and turns part of the bleeding in damage. Great to finish bleeding targets
Proposed effect: removes 30% of the bleeding of the target, that bleeding will turn into x1.5 damage instantly. (So a target with 100 bleed will end with 70 bleed and will receive additional 45 damage instantly)
-Silent death: bonus damage nerfed to 50%. Will help balancing weapons with this trait
New proposed character trait: Backstabber
Melee silent weapons do 50% more damage against deployed targets. Ranged silent weapond do 25% more damage to deployed targets . Deployed players will be marked with an indicator.
This will make sneakers (specially melee) a direct counter to deployed enemies without team support. Good to assault BG snipers, or an unsupported machine gun nest.
Silenced weapons and playstyles
Long range: play safe, not good damage but potential to debuff and weaken enemies and remain safe. high revelation time than most silent weapons
-Syringe rifle: poison, AP drain, better chance to cause winded. Very low damage.
-Silenced rifle: medium damage. high ap cost (much more than regular snipers) maybe need to be deployed. 1 slayer rank
Medium range: more risky than long range but better damage
-Needler: nerf AP ammo damage, should be good to reveal other sneakers and damage enemies while still stay safe, low revelation time.
-Silenced Smgs: good for hit and run tactics and finish low health targets, add some Slayer perks. Some one could have eviscerate to synergy well with bleeding weapons.
Close range: Lowest revelation time, highest damage (still lower than regular melee weapons)
-Waki: 2x silent death, better criticals, more criticals, Slayer. Good to finish weak enemies from behind, able to kill a full HP enemy if deployed (waki +backstab perk will deal x2.5 to deployed targets from behind).
-Combat knife (lil Jesus?): Eviscerate, silent death, hit the gaps, 2 x finisher. Some bleed power. Good to finish enemies with high cumulated bleed or knocked down/winded.
-Machete: high bleed power and AP drain. Good to damage enemies making cumulate high bleed. Stacking with poison will make even stronger. Probably high AP cost to make it good in combination with bloodthirst/Sprinter to hit and run.
-Garrote: Increased DR trait. 2x knockout strike, better knockout, 2x slayer. Good to disable opponents, very low damage. You should be able to knock out one or two enemies and run to safe. Low damage and 2 slayer ranks will make it only good to deal damage to a target with very low health.
Non combat sneak weapons
-Soflam: good scouting tool. Maybe reduce its weight
-Jammer gun(?): similar to soflam (range, 0 damage), hitted enemies will lost all leadership bonus, even squad vision (and teammates won't longer have vision of the affected player). Hitted sneaker will also lost sneak for the duration. Good to isolate and debuff small groups of enemies and counter enemy sneakers
Traps:
Will be good if sneakers will be able to carry some traps without having much sneak penalty.
Traps also need an overhaul, not only for sneakers…
Some trap/device that i think will be nice to have (not fully related to sneak though)
Detector trap: AoE Soflam effect with increased duration. in the past a trap that gives vision of an area was implemented but not added to the game for lag issues, maybe using the soflam effect can be an option now?
(New) Stealthboy Wartime
Enabling stealthboy wartimer will further decrease your sigth (-4) and your detection range (-3PE for purposes of sneak and traps detection). Also, you will lose squad vision, and squad lose vision of you (they wont see your RTS mode marks either). You still get leadership bonus.
Disabling wartime will reset sneak and will give 5 secs sneak penalty. So you will need to move to a safe position to back to normal sneak mode
This will make wartime a mechanism to engage enemy or to increase your escape chances if you find yourself in a bad spot. While doing it you will be mostly by your own, unable to tell your team your exact position (and been more susceptible to friendly fire) and see theirs.
This will be a direct nerf to scout sneaker (they will lose the wartimer sneak bonus) and combat sneakers (harsher penalties, isolation from squad, less chance to find enemy sneakers). And make wartime a strategic desition instead of a flat bonus. Making actual differences in sneak roles and gameplay (scout and long range sneakers will use wartime mostly on critical situations to scape. Close combat assasins will use it to engage and get close to the enemy team)
tl;dr;
Sneak should be good to detect and offer enemy information (position, movement, equipment) but also good to debuff/weak/lure enemies and capableof killing specific or wounded targets. Not to be a ninja assassin capable of killing even the tankiest character on full health
Edit: added wartime suggestion
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Yup, I think you are right and there's nothing more to add. Thx pal.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Ih7NinU.gif)
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i like the more damage vs wounded targets bit, thats definitely something silenced sniper rifles should have, silent hill death is due for a rework anyway just like sneak
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yeah makes sense, +1
not a solo killing machine but still can support during fight
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(http://i.imgur.com/Ih7NinU.gif)
Why do people try to make things so complicated? We already have a poll about sneaks, and bottom line is: 80% of the playerbase wants them to NOT being able to murder people and stay invisible. It's a split decision on traps or no traps....but it's preeetty clear that people want them as recon, not oportunity killers.
Sneakers have ALWAYS been the deciding factor in big pvp fights. There is nothing better than knowing the exact position of your ennemies. Giving them the power to be invis, murder people, AND give exact locations is just overkill.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Ih7NinU.gif)
Why do people try to make things so complicated? We already have a poll about sneaks, and bottom line is: 80% of the playerbase wants them to NOT being able to murder people and stay invisible. It's a split decision on traps or no traps....but it's preeetty clear that people want them as recon, not oportunity killers.
Sneakers have ALWAYS been the deciding factor in big pvp fights. There is nothing better than knowing the exact position of your ennemies. Giving them the power to be invis, murder people, AND give exact locations is just overkill.
Yes but like i said they should not just be passive scouts, this is PVP game, everyone should be able to hold his own. Passive recons = go full retard. Don't derpify the game mechanics.
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Yes but like i said they should not just be passive scouts, this is PVP game, everyone should be able to hold his own. Passive recons = go full retard. Don't derpify the game mechanics.
wtf are you talking about. How the fuck do you expect a sneaker to hold on? Knowing enemies location for yourself and your team is a huge benefit over the enemy team if they're lacking it. Every PvP game requires you to know where the hell the enemy is, not just go blind into battle. Sadly for AoP, sneaks just are predators that can insta kill someone or backstab from 30 + hexes whoever is wounded from fighting. Apparently this is not enough to players
Red Orchestra 2 : Call in Recon so you know where the hell to call arty or where you can easily push.
Battlefield : Spotting system for is a HUGE advantage + TUG-S that spots enemies in your mini map (you know where they're coming from, facing direction, etc.
Call of dodo : UAV, Spy plane, whatever the hell they use there.
Rainbow six siege : using mini cameras to tell enemies location is a huge + for your team, marking them is risky but you're letting your team know their exact position.
A bunch of other games where knowing enemy location gives you the advantage...
This is probably the worst suggestion I've read in my AoP career. Basically saying "Hey, killing ppl in 3 hits and backstabbing nearly dead ppl with needler isn't enough, we need a buff!" Many people, including in previous FOnlines, had just wanted sneaks to be recon for their team. Unfortunately devs don't care about players opinions and listen to some fag like ramon and leave sneak in their OP state (oh fuck off matthew). Hell, why the hell is cirn0 even changing sneaks, only thing needed is to remove ability to be sneaking with Assault Rifles, deagles, snipers, any weapon not mean't for sneaking, etc. Make soflam full sneak weapon, and tone down the wakizashi which is ridiculously strong.
Some other things to consider
- Using Wakizashi + Stealth boy is currently cheapest loadout. Waki costing 150-200 meme bucks while SB for same price
- A sneak can literally yolo around bluesuit with voodoo, waki, and SB to instagibb ppl for the lulz
- Sneak can use any jacket and be effective in it
- If a sneak is alone with gear while enemies far away, he can easily pick all that shit up and boogy on out with fat loot
- A sneak can stalk a poor loner, scavenging the core, only to be killed by sneaker while sneak had literallly nothing to lose (loner lost all gear he scavenged + will to play) (http://i.imgur.com/PQas801.jpg)
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We already have a poll about sneaks, and bottom line is: 80% of the playerbase wants them to NOT being able to murder people and stay invisible.
You certainly mean 80% of the player who read the english forum section and voted on poll because 26 total votes is probably not the whole playerbase.
Red Orchestra 2 : Call in Recon so you know where the hell to call arty or where you can easily push.
Battlefield : Spotting system for is a HUGE advantage + TUG-S that spots enemies in your mini map (you know where they're coming from, facing direction, etc.
Call of dodo : UAV, Spy plane, whatever the hell they use there.
Rainbow six siege : using mini cameras to tell enemies location is a huge + for your team, marking them is risky but you're letting your team know their exact position.
A bunch of other games where knowing enemy location gives you the advantage...
You mostly talk about first person shooter games, I would argue that FOnline is closer to a top down real time pvp game.
Few examples :
DOTA and LOL both games have heroes with invisibility (can kill the whole team) and mechanics to counter invisibility. (popular games)
Bloodline Champions have heroes with invisibility and no mechanic to counter invisibility except duration, cooldown, etc... (dead game)
I could make a guess and say most top down real time pvp games have character with true invisibility because in those games your field of view is not as restricted as in a FPS game.
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maybe buff watchtower perk a bit so that it increases your snek detection range.
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We already have a poll about sneaks, and bottom line is: 80% of the playerbase wants them to NOT being able to murder people and stay invisible.
You certainly mean 80% of the player who read the english forum section and voted on poll because 26 total votes is probably not the whole playerbase.
Right, and you forgot the 200+ players who were here at launch and just went: Fuck it! Im out of here!
I mean, when you see we now have an average of 50-70 players online, you should get the CLUE that most people were VERY dissapointed. And that's like after 2 weeks only. Season one of AOP at least lasted 1-2 months before it became completly broken.
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Right, and you forgot the 200+ players who were here at launch and just went: Fuck it! Im out of here!
lot of things where broken at the start of this season, but sure! lets say 150 people left because sneakers
"Hey, killing ppl in 3 hits and backstabbing nearly dead ppl with needler isn't enough, we need a buff!"
Yeah you get the point! making sneak weapons effective only during certain circumstances, while reducing its power in all other scenarios is actually a buff ::)
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Right, and you forgot the 200+ players who were here at launch and just went: Fuck it! Im out of here!
lot of things where broken at the start of this season, but sure! lets say 150 people left because sneakers
Yeah, AT LEAST 150 players left because of sneaks. You know, all the ones that were here to play Fonline. If you wanna play Hitman or Metal Gear, go right ahead, but dont try to mix those games with Fonline....they dont.
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never forget great aop holocaust caused by sneaks in 2016
only reason everyone quit... even though sneak was basically twice as powerful at the start of season one
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wtf are you talking about. How the fuck do you expect a sneaker to hold on? Knowing enemies location for yourself and your team is a huge benefit over the enemy team if they're lacking it.
I'm saying don't nerf sneaks into some shitty passive recon class, they should still be able to fight.
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Right now they are not pvp class but wizard class ;p
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I'm saying don't nerf sneaks into some shitty passive recon class, they should still be able to fight.
As I said before, having enemy location is a benefit for your team. Sneakers should be more of a support role...not predators, killing people in a couple of hits. Also why do you think I suggested for traps to be used by sneakers? So sneakers won't just be recon but can harass enemies with traps. Traps aren't currently used, having battle characters use them will be tedious cause of having to place them and shit...not to mention enemies can see where people place traps.
Yeah you get the point! making sneak weapons effective only during certain circumstances, while reducing its power in all other scenarios is actually a buff ::)
Nigga what circumstances? Backstabbing someone deployed is already easy and now you want a perk that grants 50% bonus damage? :o
Sprinter is fine as is, your new weapon suggestions are complete shit, Literally, all of your suggestions will just make sneakers more of a pain in the ass. It's just "Ok, lets have sneakers sit back, only to backstab players and make them RQ"
"Make bloodthirst more reliable" Bitch, are you even playing AoP?
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Melee weapons does realy high damage compared to other weapons, while other weapons has less damage, but got higher range. It seems to be balanced, while ninja has to get closer to utilize its extraordinary damage. But withdrawal of this combat style is the risk of getting realy close. Which is completely nulified by sneak skill in this game, in open space same as close quarters.
People advocating this perverse gameplay are not ojective, they simply enjoy mindless rampage. It is imbalanced feature bug from the very beginning of fonlines. And scout is the only reasonable role of sneaker. Other arguments are always egoistic or status quo preserving.
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Keep all your whining in this thread http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=3286.0 (http://fonline-aop.net/forum/index.php?topic=3286.0)
This one here by SnowCrash is for actual suggestions
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Nigga what circumstances? Backstabbing someone deployed is already easy and now you want a perk that grants 50% bonus damage? :o
Sure bitch!, but those changes come with an overall reduction in damage (if you actually read what i wrote), so this 50% or whatever (numbers can be tweaked) its to bring the nerfed damage to a similar value than now.
Even with no base damage change, waki total damage will be reduced from x3 to x2 and x2.5 to deployed enemies. So how that is a buff to you?
"Make bloodthirst more reliable" Bitch, are you even playing AoP?
Yeah bitch! but making it reliable will also come with a nerf on bonus speed (from 30 to 20) and will open more strategies other than kill and run
I agree that combat and scout capabilities on the same char can be too powerful. But i also like the gameplay options that combat sneak offers. And i think that simply removing it or nerfing it into oblivion is not the way to go.
Cirn talk about making both paths possible for sneaker. May be with other changes both styles can be made playable and balanced.
Lets say we have two different kinds of stealthboys so we can separate each role making one path having harsher sight and scouting penalties but combat capabilities, and the other better scout mechanics but inability to use weapons (except sneak weapons like soflam).
Edit: added a sugestion to first post about wartime to adress sneak roles division.
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Around 75% players expresed themselves clearly! No invisible assasins freely running around. We need increase sneak awarness in case of combat skills. Even if sneaks will deal 20% less damage, nothing will change. Range is as important factor as damage itself during combat, sneak basicaly ignores any range requirements allowing usage of extreme weapons anywhere. Its basically same as you would give immortality to someone and put A-bomb into his backpack. What a stupid idea, isn't it?
Scavenger without top stuff will be close to dead anytime he just notice sneaky ambush. Adjusting, adjusting, adjusting broken mechanics. Developers must realy love Ramen if they spend so much time on fixing this bug.
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Yes fix for this is easy. Just remove sneak entirely. Everyone suddenly gets lot of fun from the game.
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Only buff agains sneek i think Wachtower perk shoud increse PE for detecting Sneek
If you idiot to let sneeker sneek in your face you shoud die, only thing that sux is when i see sneeker from range but f ping kills me duno why i have 220 ping
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Only buff agains sneek i think Wachtower perk shoud increse PE for detecting Sneek
If you idiot to let sneeker sneek in your face you shoud die, only thing that sux is when i see sneeker from range but f ping kills me duno why i have 220 ping
Thx gods...I started to think I'm the only one with fucked up ping. I have around 220 and from time to time peaks to 300-400. Its not helping :v
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Around 75% players expresed themselves clearly! No invisible assasins freely running around. We need increase sneak awarness in case of combat skills. Even if sneaks will deal 20% less damage, nothing will change. Range is as important factor as damage itself during combat, sneak basicaly ignores any range requirements allowing usage of extreme weapons anywhere. Its basically same as you would give immortality to someone and put A-bomb into his backpack. What a stupid idea, isn't it?
Scavenger without top stuff will be close to dead anytime he just notice sneaky ambush. Adjusting, adjusting, adjusting broken mechanics. Developers must realy love Ramen if they spend so much time on fixing this bug.
Getting real tiring reading the same dumb shit in every thread.
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Getting real tiring reading the same dumb shit in every thread.
Indeed! So please stop posting in every threads Ramon!
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Go play with your non existant lawyer team instead of shitposting weasel
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this beef 4real.
EDIT: weasel/razorramon: 1-0
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Getting real tiring reading the same dumb shit in every thread.
Indeed! So please stop posting in every threads Ramon!
Fuggen wrekt
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If you idiot to let sneeker sneek in your face you shoud die, only thing that sux is when i see sneeker from range but f ping kills me duno why i have 220 ping
In fact, there is majority of builds which cannot compete sneaker with ripper or waki in 1v1(or other shit). Even if this guy has equiped best stuff, he will die too voodoo sneaker, no matter how far he will spot him. In situation like this 3 or 10 hexes does not matter. In mass combat sneaker isn't/never was a problem, at least i believe so.
The only builds which probably could defeat sneaker if spotted in time, would be ripper tank, shotgun build, or some of heavy gunners which cause suppresion immediately. Which are mostly low PE builds, thus not even watchtower will help them.
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Criple leg, Knockdown, Knockout, you know you can too use voodo to run shoot run shoot , trow fire nades so he cant come near you without burning himself to death, swich sto superslege and just knock him down forewer as ripper is only 1hex range , duno why waki is 2
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Dunno why NPCs with melee weapon or animals hit me from 2 hexes also....
;_;
Papa Cirn0 save me T_T